trail calls in the paint

[rsl]

This is motivated by the "To reach or not reach" thread, but it is really different.

In NFHS two man, what are trail's responsibilities in the paint?

At a recent camp I had the following situation. A1 throws a lob pass to A2 in the lane, and A2 has inside position on B2. A2 and B2 are standing five feet away from lead. As trail, I close to almost foul line extended because all the of the action is in the paint. I see a B2 foul A2 on lead's blind side, with significant contact but not a train wreck. I wait, there is no call from lead, so I whistle.

At the next break, lead (an experienced ref on our local board) tells me he saw the contact but was waiting for the shot, which A1 was certainly going to take any second. He then told me never whistle something right in front of your partner. Good advice.

I thought I had been taught that trail should watch for backside contact when the ball goes in the paint or on rebounds. But I think I reached on this one when I shouldn't have.

When is trail supposed to put two sets of eyes on the key? Never?

[mutantducky]

pre game this with your partner. I learned early on that if there is a blatant call missed by the lead for whatever reason then go ahead and call it. fouls from behind as that the lead might not be able to see. loose balls/push fouls on rebounds.
just be careful not to go too far in. ex- lead has a1 and b1 in the post and even if you see a foul you might want to hold your call even if you see a foul. when you do go into someone else zone just have a good reason for it and any questionable calls when your partner clearly has a good look at it then probably stay out

[JRutledge]

Both Trail and Lead have things in the paint. It is about angles and where the ball is located. Sometimes you have to call things in the paint as the trail because your partner might not have the right angle or see what happen before some contact. Even in 3 person, the same applies with the Center and the Lead (which have similar angles in 2 person compared to the Trail and Lead). The lane has so many bodies that are likely to be around, the Trail better work hard to call things in the paint. The frequency of calls would depend on what type of play we are talking about and who saw the contact, but for example on rebounds, the Trail must work hard to get an angle and call something. The lead might possibly have things in front of them that prevent them from seeing the entire play or seeing any contact or non-contact at all.

This needs to be said. Not everything you hear at camps is correct. Follow what the instructor is telling you for that moment and use what works or throw out what does not work later. I would never tell this to a camper, but then again that is me. You did not attend my camp and I am not assigning you games. So you must consider the source and how that information is going to affect your game in the future. But I do not know how a Lead is the only person that can call something in the paint when so many plays the lead is clearly screened?

Peace

[SAK]

If all players are in the L's area obviously you need to be looking in to that area especially at a competitive match up in the paint. The L may have something else to look at and defiantly cannot see everything that is going on as its so cramped in his area. With that said, be careful of what you call. You don't want to come up with a foul on something that your partner decided to pass on. Yet at the same time, if there is sufficient contact that you feel merits a foul call, I say grab it especially if the L may have been straight-lined, screened, or if the foul was on your side, ie opposite side of the paint from the L.

I would have to have this conversation in pregame, but all I am going to say to a partner that grabbed something that needed to be gotten is thank you. Especially if I could not see what was going on for what ever reason.

[BillyMac]

From my pregame:

Lead’s Primary Responsibilities: Primary coverage area. Post play. Illegal screens at elbows
Trail’s Primary Responsibilities: Primary coverage area “works the arc”. Rebound coverage. Drives starting in primary. Last second shot, basket interference, goaltending. Bring subs in

Stay in your primary, it must be obvious to come out of your primary. Seldom should have four eyes on the ball. If something is there that needs to be called, call it. We’re not going to have too many double whistles if we are doing this right.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

From my pregame:

Lead’s Primary Responsibilities: Primary coverage area. Post play. Illegal screens at elbows
Trail’s Primary Responsibilities: Primary coverage area “works the arc”. Rebound coverage. Drives starting in primary. Last second shot, basket interference, goaltending. Bring subs in

Stay in your primary, it must be obvious to come out of your primary. Seldom should have four eyes on the ball. If something is there that needs to be called, call it. We’re not going to have too many double whistles if we are doing this right.

This just goes to show how things are perceived differently. In my experience in going to camps, camp clinicians love double whistles. And a defender coming from behind or out of the area from the trail, I would not expect a Lead to automatically see this.

This is why the coverage area in called "primary." That does not mean that someone could not have (especially in two person) something else or a better angle.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

just be careful not to go too far in. ex- lead has a1 and b1 in the post and even if you see a foul you might want to hold your call even if you see a foul. when you do go into someone else zone just have a good reason for it and any questionable calls when your partner clearly has a good look at it then probably stay out

Excellent post.

If your partner can't officiate a 1 v 1 match-up in his primary, then you need a new partner because you can't help him.

To do so would mean that no one is watching the other eight players, remember this is a 2-man situation.

Making a call on that play would be unacceptable.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rsl

This is motivated by the "To reach or not reach" thread, but it is really different.

In NFHS two man, what are trail's responsibilities in the paint?

At a recent camp I had the following situation. A1 throws a lob pass to A2 in the lane, and A2 has inside position on B2. A2 and B2 are standing five feet away from lead. As trail, I close to almost foul line extended because all the of the action is in the paint. I see a B2 foul A2 on lead's blind side, with significant contact but not a train wreck. I wait, there is no call from lead, so I whistle.

At the next break, lead (an experienced ref on our local board) tells me he saw the contact but was waiting for the shot, which A1 was certainly going to take any second. He then told me never whistle something right in front of your partner. Good advice.

I thought I had been taught that trail should watch for backside contact when the ball goes in the paint or on rebounds. But I think I reached on this one when I shouldn't have.

When is trail supposed to put two sets of eyes on the key? Never?

You have to understand what is the competitive match-up, and which official is responsible for it. As I just posted above, you can't go make a call on your partner's match-up. Chances are he can see that play (as your partner did in your situation), and you need to respect his judgment of it. That is the gist of what he told you afterwards.

In more general terms, 2-man only works if the two officials cover what the other is NOT looking at. When both officials are looking at the same thing, big problems could occur. They might render conflicting decisions on the play or something could happen away from that action, which gets missed and thus makes a mess of the game.

Specifically, in 2-man the Trail has no primary responsibility in the paint "by the book." However, what works well in practice is for him to act more like a C and take his side of the lane because the Lead frequently has a poor angle or gets blocked out by the big bodies on his side of the paint.
One basically wants to help on the back side with plays that the Lead can't see. Of course, one must understand what the Lead can and can't see in order to apply this.

[rsl]

I can see that my partner gave me good advice- he saw the call and had it covered.

If all the action is in the paint and I as trail I can help cover it, I should not watch the primary matchup. I should help out off ball with the other eight players.

Thanks for the answers!

[Mregor]

Originally Posted by rsl

At a recent camp I had the following situation. A1 throws a lob pass to A2 in the lane, and A2 has inside position on B2. A2 and B2 are standing five feet away from lead. As trail, I close to almost foul line extended because all the of the action is in the paint. I see a B2 foul A2 on lead's blind side, with significant contact but not a train wreck. I wait, there is no call from lead, so I whistle.

The error here is that A2 had the ball in the paint. That's lead's all the way as it's his primary with the ball. You should have off-ball responsiblity. Watch for the bump on the cutter, illegal screens, etc. but give this primary matchup to the lead in this case. A real easy way to remember is that if the ball is in your primary, you have the ball. If not, you've got off-ball. Don't want 2 sets of eyes on the ball.

Mregor

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mregor

The error here is that A2 had the ball in the paint. That's lead's all the way as it's his primary with the ball. You should have off-ball responsiblity. Watch for the bump on the cutter, illegal screens, etc. but give this primary matchup to the lead in this case. A real easy way to remember is that if the ball is in your primary, you have the ball. If not, you've got off-ball. Don't want 2 sets of eyes on the ball.

Mregor

What if the ball is on the Trail's side of the court? Or better yet, what if a player coming to defend a shot or the ball comes from the Trial's primary to guard the ball? What if the Lead never rotates to the other side of the court? The Trail is just supposed to ignore any and all contact because the Lead has this play covered (IYO)?

Peace

Originally Posted by rsl

At a recent camp I had the following situation. A1 throws a lob pass to A2 in the lane, and A2 has inside position on B2. A2 and B2 are standing five feet away from lead. As trail, I close to almost foul line extended because all the of the action is in the paint. I see a B2 foul A2 on lead's blind side, with significant contact but not a train wreck. I wait, there is no call from lead, so I whistle.

That blindside in the paint on a 2 person game is tough. There's no C so who else is available to do the right thing?
Maybe wait a bit longer, perhaps the L was waiting to see if it fell in. Sometimes contact may be there, but it doesn't warrant an And1 or the L could've been giving A2 a chance to finish the play vs. the "nice try but take it out & start all over again" routine. Timing of the whistle on plays to the basket is crucial! Your L could've been thinking along those lines.

Originally Posted by rsl

At the next break, lead (an experienced ref on our local board) tells me he saw the contact but was waiting for the shot, which A1 was certainly going to take any second. He then told me never whistle something right in front of your partner. Good advice.

Never say never
I had a closely guarded count in a camp setting, from my area C to the T area, I continued my count & saw an illegal screen right in front of the T near the dribbler. I made the call, because the T recognized I had a count & their body language & eyes told me they were officiating elsewhere.
It was clear across the court, thank God I remembered to close & had a reason to be looking there in the first place.

Originally Posted by rsl

When is trail supposed to put two sets of eyes on the key? Never?

If there are no absolutes or always in officiating, how could there be nevers?

In the end, I guess it's who you're working for/with & what you're trying to achieve at that camp.

[fiasco]

If I'm trail I never call anything in the paint. After all, it's not my primary area. If I'm lead and my partner calls something in the paint, boy I'm gonna embarass him somethin' good.

[bbcof83]

Originally Posted by fiasco

If I'm trail I never call anything in the paint. After all, it's not my primary area. If I'm lead and my partner calls something in the paint, boy I'm gonna embarass him somethin' good.

I'm picking up a hint of sarcasm here.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rsl

I can see that my partner gave me good advice- he saw the call and had it covered.

If all the action is in the paint and I as trail I can help cover it, I should not watch the primary matchup. I should help out off ball with the other eight players.

Thanks for the answers!

If you can absorb that information and apply it on the court, then you will already be ahead of the majority of officials at the HS level.

It may be a cynical view, but I believe that WAY too many HS officials are obsessed with the d@rn ball. They just don't comprehend the importance of observing off-ball action.

The concept of competitive match-ups is an excellent way of selecting what you should be watching and will greatly benefit you in the future.

Best wishes.