trail calls in the paint

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by fiasco

If I'm trail I never call anything in the paint. After all, it's not my primary area. If I'm lead and my partner calls something in the paint, boy I'm gonna embarass him somethin' good.

Yeah, I'd make his life a living hell for the rest of the game without making myself look bad in the process OR being a bad partner/person OR missing any rules whatsoever in the NFHS manual, unless of course I see fit to.

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by bbcof83

I'm picking up a hint of sarcasm here.

"That's good (Tommy Boy) because he is laying it on pretty thick" -- Richard.

[JRutledge]

The paint is usually a dual area for everyone in both 2 person and 3 person mechanics. If we do not require only the lead to call things in 3 person, why would we have the same requirements in 2 person with one less person on the court officiating? This is about understanding the mechanics and officiating to what you need to call or leave alone. There is even a reason why we ask the lead to rotate to the trail's side of the court so they can bet a better angle on certain plays. If the lead never rotates, there are plays in and around the lane they are going to miss and the trail official will have to call. There are times I would call things in the paint in a 2 person game and there are times I would never (Yes I said never) make a call in the paint unless I clearly saw something I believe my partner might have missed or needed help on. We cannot officiating on an internet site where we talk about situations based solely on what some book says, without understanding what the book is actually saying. There is a reason the coverage areas are called "primary coverage areas." There is nothing that says you do not have a secondary coverage area. When you look off ball, you might be looking in the primary of your partner because they are concentrating on the ball. This comes with experience when to call and when not to call these kinds of plays.

Peace

[just another ref]

Many times a travel in the post is much easier for the trail to see, from the backcourt even, than for the lead to see 4 feet from the play.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

There is nothing that says you do not have a secondary coverage area.

You must have been embarrassed by so many veteran partners over the years with that attitude.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by fiasco

You must have been embarrassed by so many veteran partners over the years with that attitude.

Nope, sorry. Thanks for playing.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

.. We cannot officiating on an internet site where we talk about situations based solely on what some book says, without understanding what the book is actually saying...

Some folks are HOF internet officials, but put a whistle in their mouth and the outcome is slightly different.

I know the Philadelphia Eagles would have 2-3 Super Bowl rings if they listened to the things I've posted in football discussions.

[Mregor]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What if the ball is on the Trail's side of the court?

What is trail side of court? We're talking primary coverage area here. It's either in trails primary or leads primary.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Or better yet, what if a player coming to defend a shot or the ball comes from the Trial's primary to guard the ball?

I don't see the point here. If the player is coming from trail primary to defend a shot in the lead's primary, the lead should still have the play on the ball. It's not like the play with the ball originates in the trail's primary and comes into the lead. In that case in my 2-man, if the play originates in trail, the trail takes it all the way to the hoop if it's uninterrupted.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What if the Lead never rotates to the other side of the court?

We get to pick our partners here so in that case, I'd find a new partner.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The Trail is just supposed to ignore any and all contact because the Lead has this play covered (IYO)?

I was giving some basic philosophy. Obviously the original poster has some questions about when and when not to whistle in another's primary. I gave him some basic information to help him on his way while he progresses as an official and gets more of a feel for the game. It all comes with experience and we've all been there. Referee the defense, have a patient whistle, competitive matchup, don't let traveling be your best call, we have all heard these at one time or another and mostly very early in our learning. But how long did it take to really understand what reffing the defense is? Maybe I'm just slow, but even though I've heard that since day 1, it took me a few years to really comprehend it. Having the ball when it is in your primary coverage area and off-ball (not necesarily in your PCA) when the ball is not in your PCA, is a good basic mechanic to build on.

Mregor

[JRutledge]

What if the ball is on the Trail's side of the court?

Originally Posted by Mregor

What is trail side of court? We're talking primary coverage area here. It's either in trails primary or leads primary.

The Trail's side of the court is the side of the court that they are located. This is why the lead is instructed to rotate (move to the Trail's side of the court) in order to get a better angle. If the lead does not rotate, they are not going to see things going on away from the basket or where the ball handler in the post might likely have the ball. In other words the slaps to the arms or the defender coming from the perimeter is likely not going to be seen based on the lead's angle.

You are obviously caught up in the coverage area and not concerned about what you can see from where you are looking.

Or better yet, what if a player coming to defend a shot or the ball comes from the Trial's primary to guard the ball?

Originally Posted by Mregor

I don't see the point here. If the player is coming from trail primary to defend a shot in the lead's primary, the lead should still have the play on the ball. It's not like the play with the ball originates in the trail's primary and comes into the lead. In that case in my 2-man, if the play originates in trail, the trail takes it all the way to the hoop if it's uninterrupted.

[QUOTE=Mregor;616128]
If that is the case, why do we tell the center or trail in 3 Person to call things in the lane too? Maybe we ask that of them because the Lead might have bodies in front of them? Or better yet, they get straight lined on a play. I am not trying to be funny, but if a defender is directly behind the shooter and pushes through a shooter's back (and the ball is coming from the trail's side of the court), it is likely that the Lead has no angle. I do not care what primary coverage area says, I have officiated this play enough from both the lead and the center position and was glad when an partner made such a call when I do not have an angle.

What if the Lead never rotates to the other side of the court?

Originally Posted by Mregor

We get to pick our partners here so in that case, I'd find a new partner.

Why would you find a new partner, because they use the proscribed mechanic? My state does not use pure NF Mechanics and this is an accepted and encouraged mechanic similar to 3 Person because the Lead cannot look across the lane (and correctly see backside play) and call things without a realistic possibility of having people not in front of them or getting straight lined.

The Trail is just supposed to ignore any and all contact because the Lead has this play covered (IYO)

Originally Posted by Mregor

I was giving some basic philosophy. Obviously the original poster has some questions about when and when not to whistle in another's primary. I gave him some basic information to help him on his way while he progresses as an official and gets more of a feel for the game. It all comes with experience and we've all been there. Referee the defense, have a patient whistle, competitive matchup, don't let traveling be your best call, we have all heard these at one time or another and mostly very early in our learning. But how long did it take to really understand what reffing the defense is? Maybe I'm just slow, but even though I've heard that since day 1, it took me a few years to really comprehend it. Having the ball when it is in your primary coverage area and off-ball (not necesarily in your PCA) when the ball is not in your PCA, is a good basic mechanic to build on.

Mregor

I have heard a lot of things that does not mean everyone subscribes to them, especially the "Don't let traveling become your best call." For one that alone is gone by the waist side because at the college level we are told to get the travels left and right. There are a lot of things I have heard people say over the years, but that does not mean we still follow them all. And the idea that the Lead can call everything correctly in their primary or on the edges of their primary is long gone. And the reason I feel this position has changed, because with 3 Person being worked and there is a much smaller coverage area for the lead, it is still hard for an official to see certain things on the back side. This is why we say that if the center has a play going to the basket, they likely have a better look at the entire play than the lead. And this is why also we ask the lead to rotate to the other side (the game has not changed because you have 1 more official) to get a better look at the post.

Now that never took me a long time to understand. It is the same game, you are just officiating it with one less official and the angles do not automatically change either.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

.... that alone is gone by the waist side.......

There are a lot of things I have heard people say over the years....

A unique bit of philosophy, to be sure.

[Mregor]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You are obviously caught up in the coverage area and not concerned about what you can see from where you are looking.


What if the Lead never rotates to the other side of the court?

Why would you find a new partner, because they use the proscribed mechanic?

Do you even bother to read and try to comprehend what someone says or are you just naturally antagonistic? This whole thread is about PCA's and it's not about 3-man which is very different than 2-man. Isn't there an ignore button on here?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mregor

Do you even bother to read and try to comprehend what someone says or are you just naturally antagonistic? This whole thread is about PCA's and it's not about 3-man which is very different than 2-man. Isn't there an ignore button on here?

Obviously you do not understand what it means when someone used the term PCA. If you did, you would understand the logic behind the 2 Person primary coverage areas and how it is directly linked to the 3 Person coverage areas. This is why the NF asks the lead official to rotate to mirror 3 Person logic. Two person coverage areas are directly trying to compensate for not having another official. This is why they ask the lead official to rotate to the other side of the court in the first place. If you do not understand that, then you will never understand when to call or not to call at certain areas on the floor.

It is obvious this is completely lost on you. Yes, please ignore me, this conversation is a little over your head. If you got it, you could simply engage in the discussion and not try to make this about what you feel someone is acting.

Peace

[Mregor]

You obviously can't understand the English language. Why don't you go back and read my comment and really try to understand it.

You said what if the lead never rotates ball side. I replied that we get to pick our partners here where I work and if that was the case, I'd get a new partner. You replied why would I get a new partner because he was following the proscribed (the correct word is prescribed BTW) mechanic. The meaning of my original reply is that if I had a partner that refuses to rotate ball side, I'd find look for a new partner (implying that I would find one who did rotate).

Like I stated, your an antogonist and just like to argue and belittle people presumably to make yourself superior. This is a learning forum, get over yourself.

Roger

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mregor

You obviously can't understand the English language. Why don't you go back and read my comment and really try to understand it.

You said what if the lead never rotates ball side. I replied that we get to pick our partners here where I work and if that was the case, I'd get a new partner. You replied why would I get a new partner because he was following the proscribed (the correct word is prescribed BTW) mechanic. The meaning of my original reply is that if I had a partner that refuses to rotate ball side, I'd find look for a new partner (implying that I would find one who did rotate).

It is not about just about English, it is about communication skills as well. Why would you get a new partner, because they rotated or because they did not rotate? Seems to me you were not very clear why you objected to what I said. And I did not ask you about how you choose partners if you want to split hairs over what I stated the differences between 2 Person and 3 Person coverage areas. Most of us likely cannot choose partners. I know I cannot choose partners if I was working 2 Person games. I would not have the clout or trust from those assigning to have that kind of say. That point is irrelevant to this discussion if you want to dismiss what I said about the differences in coverage areas.

That being said, the lead needs to rotate to get a better angle in their coverage area. If they do not rotate, they are leaving the call to the Trail or the better angle to the Trail official depending on where the ball is located in the lane. And that concept is the same as what is expected in 3 Person as well. That was the only point I was making and the reason why we cannot expect the Lead (who has the lane if you look at the book) to call everything in the lane when they very likely did not see the entire play (e.g. Ball coming from the Trail's coverage area) or is straight lined on a back side or play from behind a shooter going to the basket. This very thing was discussed by Tommy O’Neil at the IHSA Conference when he gave a presentation on 3 Person and talked about the reasons you rotate and the difficulty of the Center (who has the same angle as the Trail in 2 Person) in relationship to the Lead in a similar angle.

I am actually an IHSA Registered Basketball Clinician in my state that was hand picked to teach mechanics in this sport. I am telling you something that is being taught from officials much better than me and what we see the deficiencies of the 2 Person system. And even the 3 Person system we have similar deficiencies when the Lead tries to call everything in the lane (usually to the opposite side of the lane from where they are standing) and cannot see or does not have a good angle to make a call. This is why we ask the Lead to rotate in 3 Person to rotate. So yes, in my opinion the two are very much related and the people in my state that are over me or more experienced than me feel the same way. This is not a new concept that I came up all on my own. Actually I did not come up with it at all. I used to be against rotation for the lead in 2 Person until I was shown many examples as to why the lead needed to rotate.

Originally Posted by Mregor

Like I stated, your an antogonist and just like to argue and belittle people presumably to make yourself superior. This is a learning forum, get over yourself.

Roger

First of all you do not know what I like to do. I just go through teaching a bunch of new official (over 100) for a 4 hour period of time teaching the expectations of officiating. In doing that, I talk very direct and honestly about what those have to face. I do not need to feel anything. But if you are going to talk about calling the game, you better deal with more than what the book says, because the book does not tell you what most will teach at a camp. I have had better officials than me talk about how the mechanics are a guide, not an absolute. You seem to think there is an absolute way of doing this thing we call officiating, and someone introducing an idea beyond what you have been taught is a struggle for you. If it bothers you that much, then do not read a single word. At the end of the day, I got my games. I am not trying to learn how to call the game and when to call a PCA and when not to. You can take the advice for what it is worth and use what you find useful and throw out the rest. I will tell you this, the people on this board are not going to ultimately care if you get it or not. They are in the same boat; they are going to be judged on what they do on the court, not what you think they said here.

Peace