trail calls in the paint

[rsl]

This is motivated by the "To reach or not reach" thread, but it is really different.

In NFHS two man, what are trail's responsibilities in the paint?

At a recent camp I had the following situation. A1 throws a lob pass to A2 in the lane, and A2 has inside position on B2. A2 and B2 are standing five feet away from lead. As trail, I close to almost foul line extended because all the of the action is in the paint. I see a B2 foul A2 on lead's blind side, with significant contact but not a train wreck. I wait, there is no call from lead, so I whistle.

At the next break, lead (an experienced ref on our local board) tells me he saw the contact but was waiting for the shot, which A1 was certainly going to take any second. He then told me never whistle something right in front of your partner. Good advice.

I thought I had been taught that trail should watch for backside contact when the ball goes in the paint or on rebounds. But I think I reached on this one when I shouldn't have.

When is trail supposed to put two sets of eyes on the key? Never?

[mutantducky]

pre game this with your partner. I learned early on that if there is a blatant call missed by the lead for whatever reason then go ahead and call it. fouls from behind as that the lead might not be able to see. loose balls/push fouls on rebounds.
just be careful not to go too far in. ex- lead has a1 and b1 in the post and even if you see a foul you might want to hold your call even if you see a foul. when you do go into someone else zone just have a good reason for it and any questionable calls when your partner clearly has a good look at it then probably stay out

[JRutledge]

Both Trail and Lead have things in the paint. It is about angles and where the ball is located. Sometimes you have to call things in the paint as the trail because your partner might not have the right angle or see what happen before some contact. Even in 3 person, the same applies with the Center and the Lead (which have similar angles in 2 person compared to the Trail and Lead). The lane has so many bodies that are likely to be around, the Trail better work hard to call things in the paint. The frequency of calls would depend on what type of play we are talking about and who saw the contact, but for example on rebounds, the Trail must work hard to get an angle and call something. The lead might possibly have things in front of them that prevent them from seeing the entire play or seeing any contact or non-contact at all.

This needs to be said. Not everything you hear at camps is correct. Follow what the instructor is telling you for that moment and use what works or throw out what does not work later. I would never tell this to a camper, but then again that is me. You did not attend my camp and I am not assigning you games. So you must consider the source and how that information is going to affect your game in the future. But I do not know how a Lead is the only person that can call something in the paint when so many plays the lead is clearly screened?

Peace

[SAK]

If all players are in the L's area obviously you need to be looking in to that area especially at a competitive match up in the paint. The L may have something else to look at and defiantly cannot see everything that is going on as its so cramped in his area. With that said, be careful of what you call. You don't want to come up with a foul on something that your partner decided to pass on. Yet at the same time, if there is sufficient contact that you feel merits a foul call, I say grab it especially if the L may have been straight-lined, screened, or if the foul was on your side, ie opposite side of the paint from the L.

I would have to have this conversation in pregame, but all I am going to say to a partner that grabbed something that needed to be gotten is thank you. Especially if I could not see what was going on for what ever reason.

[BillyMac]

From my pregame:

Lead’s Primary Responsibilities: Primary coverage area. Post play. Illegal screens at elbows
Trail’s Primary Responsibilities: Primary coverage area “works the arc”. Rebound coverage. Drives starting in primary. Last second shot, basket interference, goaltending. Bring subs in

Stay in your primary, it must be obvious to come out of your primary. Seldom should have four eyes on the ball. If something is there that needs to be called, call it. We’re not going to have too many double whistles if we are doing this right.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

From my pregame:

Lead’s Primary Responsibilities: Primary coverage area. Post play. Illegal screens at elbows
Trail’s Primary Responsibilities: Primary coverage area “works the arc”. Rebound coverage. Drives starting in primary. Last second shot, basket interference, goaltending. Bring subs in

Stay in your primary, it must be obvious to come out of your primary. Seldom should have four eyes on the ball. If something is there that needs to be called, call it. We’re not going to have too many double whistles if we are doing this right.

This just goes to show how things are perceived differently. In my experience in going to camps, camp clinicians love double whistles. And a defender coming from behind or out of the area from the trail, I would not expect a Lead to automatically see this.

This is why the coverage area in called "primary." That does not mean that someone could not have (especially in two person) something else or a better angle.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by mutantducky

just be careful not to go too far in. ex- lead has a1 and b1 in the post and even if you see a foul you might want to hold your call even if you see a foul. when you do go into someone else zone just have a good reason for it and any questionable calls when your partner clearly has a good look at it then probably stay out

Excellent post.

If your partner can't officiate a 1 v 1 match-up in his primary, then you need a new partner because you can't help him.

To do so would mean that no one is watching the other eight players, remember this is a 2-man situation.

Making a call on that play would be unacceptable.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rsl

This is motivated by the "To reach or not reach" thread, but it is really different.

In NFHS two man, what are trail's responsibilities in the paint?

At a recent camp I had the following situation. A1 throws a lob pass to A2 in the lane, and A2 has inside position on B2. A2 and B2 are standing five feet away from lead. As trail, I close to almost foul line extended because all the of the action is in the paint. I see a B2 foul A2 on lead's blind side, with significant contact but not a train wreck. I wait, there is no call from lead, so I whistle.

At the next break, lead (an experienced ref on our local board) tells me he saw the contact but was waiting for the shot, which A1 was certainly going to take any second. He then told me never whistle something right in front of your partner. Good advice.

I thought I had been taught that trail should watch for backside contact when the ball goes in the paint or on rebounds. But I think I reached on this one when I shouldn't have.

When is trail supposed to put two sets of eyes on the key? Never?

You have to understand what is the competitive match-up, and which official is responsible for it. As I just posted above, you can't go make a call on your partner's match-up. Chances are he can see that play (as your partner did in your situation), and you need to respect his judgment of it. That is the gist of what he told you afterwards.

In more general terms, 2-man only works if the two officials cover what the other is NOT looking at. When both officials are looking at the same thing, big problems could occur. They might render conflicting decisions on the play or something could happen away from that action, which gets missed and thus makes a mess of the game.

Specifically, in 2-man the Trail has no primary responsibility in the paint "by the book." However, what works well in practice is for him to act more like a C and take his side of the lane because the Lead frequently has a poor angle or gets blocked out by the big bodies on his side of the paint.
One basically wants to help on the back side with plays that the Lead can't see. Of course, one must understand what the Lead can and can't see in order to apply this.

[rsl]

I can see that my partner gave me good advice- he saw the call and had it covered.

If all the action is in the paint and I as trail I can help cover it, I should not watch the primary matchup. I should help out off ball with the other eight players.

Thanks for the answers!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rsl

I can see that my partner gave me good advice- he saw the call and had it covered.

If all the action is in the paint and I as trail I can help cover it, I should not watch the primary matchup. I should help out off ball with the other eight players.

Thanks for the answers!

If you can absorb that information and apply it on the court, then you will already be ahead of the majority of officials at the HS level.

It may be a cynical view, but I believe that WAY too many HS officials are obsessed with the d@rn ball. They just don't comprehend the importance of observing off-ball action.

The concept of competitive match-ups is an excellent way of selecting what you should be watching and will greatly benefit you in the future.

Best wishes.

[Mregor]

Originally Posted by rsl

At a recent camp I had the following situation. A1 throws a lob pass to A2 in the lane, and A2 has inside position on B2. A2 and B2 are standing five feet away from lead. As trail, I close to almost foul line extended because all the of the action is in the paint. I see a B2 foul A2 on lead's blind side, with significant contact but not a train wreck. I wait, there is no call from lead, so I whistle.

The error here is that A2 had the ball in the paint. That's lead's all the way as it's his primary with the ball. You should have off-ball responsiblity. Watch for the bump on the cutter, illegal screens, etc. but give this primary matchup to the lead in this case. A real easy way to remember is that if the ball is in your primary, you have the ball. If not, you've got off-ball. Don't want 2 sets of eyes on the ball.

Mregor

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mregor

The error here is that A2 had the ball in the paint. That's lead's all the way as it's his primary with the ball. You should have off-ball responsiblity. Watch for the bump on the cutter, illegal screens, etc. but give this primary matchup to the lead in this case. A real easy way to remember is that if the ball is in your primary, you have the ball. If not, you've got off-ball. Don't want 2 sets of eyes on the ball.

Mregor

What if the ball is on the Trail's side of the court? Or better yet, what if a player coming to defend a shot or the ball comes from the Trial's primary to guard the ball? What if the Lead never rotates to the other side of the court? The Trail is just supposed to ignore any and all contact because the Lead has this play covered (IYO)?

Peace

[Mregor]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What if the ball is on the Trail's side of the court?

What is trail side of court? We're talking primary coverage area here. It's either in trails primary or leads primary.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Or better yet, what if a player coming to defend a shot or the ball comes from the Trial's primary to guard the ball?

I don't see the point here. If the player is coming from trail primary to defend a shot in the lead's primary, the lead should still have the play on the ball. It's not like the play with the ball originates in the trail's primary and comes into the lead. In that case in my 2-man, if the play originates in trail, the trail takes it all the way to the hoop if it's uninterrupted.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What if the Lead never rotates to the other side of the court?

We get to pick our partners here so in that case, I'd find a new partner.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

The Trail is just supposed to ignore any and all contact because the Lead has this play covered (IYO)?

I was giving some basic philosophy. Obviously the original poster has some questions about when and when not to whistle in another's primary. I gave him some basic information to help him on his way while he progresses as an official and gets more of a feel for the game. It all comes with experience and we've all been there. Referee the defense, have a patient whistle, competitive matchup, don't let traveling be your best call, we have all heard these at one time or another and mostly very early in our learning. But how long did it take to really understand what reffing the defense is? Maybe I'm just slow, but even though I've heard that since day 1, it took me a few years to really comprehend it. Having the ball when it is in your primary coverage area and off-ball (not necesarily in your PCA) when the ball is not in your PCA, is a good basic mechanic to build on.

Mregor

[JRutledge]

What if the ball is on the Trail's side of the court?

Originally Posted by Mregor

What is trail side of court? We're talking primary coverage area here. It's either in trails primary or leads primary.

The Trail's side of the court is the side of the court that they are located. This is why the lead is instructed to rotate (move to the Trail's side of the court) in order to get a better angle. If the lead does not rotate, they are not going to see things going on away from the basket or where the ball handler in the post might likely have the ball. In other words the slaps to the arms or the defender coming from the perimeter is likely not going to be seen based on the lead's angle.

You are obviously caught up in the coverage area and not concerned about what you can see from where you are looking.

Or better yet, what if a player coming to defend a shot or the ball comes from the Trial's primary to guard the ball?

Originally Posted by Mregor

I don't see the point here. If the player is coming from trail primary to defend a shot in the lead's primary, the lead should still have the play on the ball. It's not like the play with the ball originates in the trail's primary and comes into the lead. In that case in my 2-man, if the play originates in trail, the trail takes it all the way to the hoop if it's uninterrupted.

[QUOTE=Mregor;616128]
If that is the case, why do we tell the center or trail in 3 Person to call things in the lane too? Maybe we ask that of them because the Lead might have bodies in front of them? Or better yet, they get straight lined on a play. I am not trying to be funny, but if a defender is directly behind the shooter and pushes through a shooter's back (and the ball is coming from the trail's side of the court), it is likely that the Lead has no angle. I do not care what primary coverage area says, I have officiated this play enough from both the lead and the center position and was glad when an partner made such a call when I do not have an angle.

What if the Lead never rotates to the other side of the court?

Originally Posted by Mregor

We get to pick our partners here so in that case, I'd find a new partner.

Why would you find a new partner, because they use the proscribed mechanic? My state does not use pure NF Mechanics and this is an accepted and encouraged mechanic similar to 3 Person because the Lead cannot look across the lane (and correctly see backside play) and call things without a realistic possibility of having people not in front of them or getting straight lined.

The Trail is just supposed to ignore any and all contact because the Lead has this play covered (IYO)

Originally Posted by Mregor

I was giving some basic philosophy. Obviously the original poster has some questions about when and when not to whistle in another's primary. I gave him some basic information to help him on his way while he progresses as an official and gets more of a feel for the game. It all comes with experience and we've all been there. Referee the defense, have a patient whistle, competitive matchup, don't let traveling be your best call, we have all heard these at one time or another and mostly very early in our learning. But how long did it take to really understand what reffing the defense is? Maybe I'm just slow, but even though I've heard that since day 1, it took me a few years to really comprehend it. Having the ball when it is in your primary coverage area and off-ball (not necesarily in your PCA) when the ball is not in your PCA, is a good basic mechanic to build on.

Mregor

I have heard a lot of things that does not mean everyone subscribes to them, especially the "Don't let traveling become your best call." For one that alone is gone by the waist side because at the college level we are told to get the travels left and right. There are a lot of things I have heard people say over the years, but that does not mean we still follow them all. And the idea that the Lead can call everything correctly in their primary or on the edges of their primary is long gone. And the reason I feel this position has changed, because with 3 Person being worked and there is a much smaller coverage area for the lead, it is still hard for an official to see certain things on the back side. This is why we say that if the center has a play going to the basket, they likely have a better look at the entire play than the lead. And this is why also we ask the lead to rotate to the other side (the game has not changed because you have 1 more official) to get a better look at the post.

Now that never took me a long time to understand. It is the same game, you are just officiating it with one less official and the angles do not automatically change either.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

.... that alone is gone by the waist side.......

There are a lot of things I have heard people say over the years....

A unique bit of philosophy, to be sure.