Jump ball or Travel

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

So based upon the OP, travel or held ball?
We all seem to agree on what constitues a held ball. The discsusion I believe is based on the OP, is there any doubt that this play was a travel as per rules versus judgment call.

Okay, let's try this again.

Anytime the defense touches the ball held by an airborne shooter who does not release before landing, you have to make a judgment. "Did the defender's touch prevent the release." Sometimes that judgment is easier than others. In the case of the OP, it seems to have been a pretty easy judgment in favor of a travel call.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Okay, let's try this again.

Anytime the defense touches the ball held by an airborne shooter who does not release before landing, you have to make a judgment. "Did the defender's touch prevent the release." Sometimes that judgment is easier than others. In the case of the OP, it seems to have been a pretty easy judgment in favor of a travel call.

but this is my "mental block", and I have simplified the thought process

1) player in air with ball, any rule broken : NO
2) Is player passing, trying holding : OP ays none
3) defense comes from behind
4) Any illegal contact : NO
5) Defense touches ball
6) Held ball rule applies : NO
7) offense goes to floor with held ball
8) Rule 4.44 applies; travel whistle

so no judgment in my mind.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

but this is my "mental block", and I have simplified the thought process

1) player in air with ball, any rule broken : NO
2) Is player passing, trying holding : OP ays none
3) defense comes from behind
4) Any illegal contact : NO
5) Defense touches ball
6) Held ball rule applies : NO
7) offense goes to floor with held ball
8) Rule 4.44 applies; travel whistle

so no judgment in my mind.

Judgment is required for you to move from 5 to 6 in your little progression here.

Let me ask you this. Why does the held ball rule not apply?

(wow, Socrates and Aristotle in one day?)

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Judgment is required for you to move from 5 to 6 in your little progression here.

Let me ask you this. Why does the held ball rule not apply?

(wow, Socrates and Aristotle in one day?)

Socrates never wrote anything down and relied on the students(Plato, socrates prized student) to put it down and Aristotle was Plato prime student,
So Plato is the rule book Please continue asking the only way to really get an understanding of the rules

The held ball rule is very specific about when a held ball occurs,I refer you to 4.25.2

The rule states "prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try" keep word prevents
the OP specifically says no change in airborne action to them or the ball: not a judgment call in this case

[BillyMac]

"There's no judge in judgment."

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

"There's no judge in judgment."

Ah English an other set of rule

[ILMalti]

You see ch1town I see things differently

1) player in air with ball, any rule broken : NO << Fact
2) Is player passing, trying holding : OP ays none << Observation
3) defense comes from behind
4) Any illegal contact : NO << observation
5) Defense touches ball << Fact
6) Held ball rule applies : NO << fact based on rule
7) offense goes to floor with held ball << fact
8) Rule 4.44 applies; travel whistle << Automatic rule

so no judgment in my mind. not for this OP

And I agree with "Making a judgment doesn't always, absolutely, automatically require a whistle." Judgments are made throught the game, but on this OP there is none

Yes every idiot can read the rules, but it does not mean if you read them you understand them. fact


You also are right I am a rookie

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Socrates never wrote anything down and relied on the students(Plato, socrates prized student) to put it down and Aristotle was Plato prime student,
So Plato is the rule book Please continue asking the only way to really get an understanding of the rules

The held ball rule is very specific about when a held ball occurs,I refer you to 4.25.2

The rule states "prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try" keep word prevents
the OP specifically says no change in airborne action to them or the ball: not a judgment call in this case

Don't presume I don't know the rule, I'm very aware of what this rule says. My first point is that the OP made his judgment at the time, and his post reflected that judgment. My second point is that this play always requires judgment, even if that judgment seems very easy. My third point is that I have no idea why you are hung up on that one word. Call it a "decision" if you must.

[Johnny Ringo]

Time to vote: What does everyone here basedon the OP? Travel or jump ball?

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Don't presume I don't know the rule, I'm very aware of what this rule says. My first point is that the OP made his judgment at the time, and his post reflected that judgment. My second point is that this play always requires judgment, even if that judgment seems very easy. My third point is that I have no idea why you are hung up on that one word. Call it a "decision" if you must.

Fair compromise. Sorry for being such a stickler about the word, FOR ME Decision means, no personal influence, whilst judgement does.. NOTE the words "FOR ME".

Not for one moment have i doubted your BB rule knowledge. We do not happen to see things the same way at times and thus until we understand each otehr "style" in describing stuff we will have these misunderstandings

Thank you


Travel is my vote (obvioulsy)

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Travel is my vote (obvioulsy)

FWIW, travel is the obvious call given the description given in the OP.

I'm not sure what you mean by personal influence. Every call I make is influenced by whether I think it was a break of the rules or not.

Did the contact cause him to travel?
Did the contact substantially alter the shot?
Did those two feet land simultaneously?
Did he release the dribble before lifting his pivot?
Did the coach cross the line with her comments?
Did her foot hit the OOB line before she released the pass?
and finally
Did the defender's contact on the ball prevent the release?

Sometimes the answers to these questions are easier than others. The OP appears to have been an easy call if you know the rule. There are other cases where the determination is more difficult to make. As Bob says, benefit goes to a held ball if there's any doubt.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Socrates never wrote anything down and relied on the students(Plato, socrates prized student) to put it down and Aristotle was Plato prime student,
So Plato is the rule book Please continue asking the only way to really get an understanding of the rules

The held ball rule is very specific about when a held ball occurs,I refer you to 4.25.2

The rule states "prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try" keep word prevents
the OP specifically says no change in airborne action to them or the ball: not a judgment call in this case

If you are simply considering how to apply the rule to this OP's situation as he has presented it, then you not required to make any judgments.

However, if you are officiating that play in real life, you definitely have some judgments to make, based on the observable facts and your own experiences. That the player left the ground, that the defender touched the ball, and that the player returned to the ground without releasing the ball are all observable facts. Whether the defender's contact prevented the player from releasing the ball...that is the official's judgment. Even before that, you have to judge whether the player even attempted to release the ball, because with no attempted release there is no prevented release.

[ILMalti]

I regret bringing up my concern about the word "judgement call" or my belief that the rule book covers all required situations and if does not (cover the situation) it is not against the rules.

but to answer a couple of questions

"Even before that, you have to judge whether the player even attempted to release the ball" Would the "judgment " be based upon an officials own playing experience if the action is not that clear ? If an official had NO BB playing experience would they be able to come to the same conclusion that an experienced BB official has?

And since this "judgment call" is based on the official own BB experience that is why I said the "judgment call" are influenced by "perosnal influence".

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

I regret bringing up my concern about the word "judgement call" or my belief that the rule book covers all required situations and if does not (cover the situation) it is not against the rules.

but to answer a couple of questions

"Even before that, you have to judge whether the player even attempted to release the ball" Would the "judgment " be based upon an officials own playing experience if the action is not that clear ? If an official had NO BB playing experience would they be able to come to the same conclusion that an experienced BB official has?

And since this "judgment call" is based on the official own BB experience that is why I said the "judgment call" are influenced by "perosnal influence".

Right or wrong, qualified or unqualified, some way, some how, somebody has to make that determination. That somebody is you and me. That's why we make the big bucks.