Jump ball or Travel

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Judgment call. If you feel the contact on the ball prevented the release, held ball. If you feel the shooter was simply confused/distracted by the contact, and this caused him to return to the floor, travel.

Agreed, but the "benefit of the doubt" should go to the held ball call.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Agreed, but the "benefit of the doubt" should go to the held ball call.

I agree, depending on the game situation.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Agreed, but the "benefit of the doubt" should go to the held ball call.

Sorry but I have to ask. How can this be a judgment call?

The rule is very very specific for held ball..
The OP description says that the ball was "grazed ,touched, ball never came dislodged, loose or at anytime did player A lose control."

In addition the OP states "The shooter just never shot it."


So where does the held ball rule come to play?

why complicate the call? Judgment calls lead to problems especially when a rule can be applied without any question

So using the above logic : a TRAVEL call only

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Sorry but I have to ask. How can this be a judgment call?

The rule is very very specific for held ball..
The OP description says that the ball was "grazed" ,touched, ball never came dislodged, loose or at anytime did player A lose control.

So where does the held ball rule come to play?

NOt a judgment call but a TRAVEL call only (no mention of a foul)

Really? How could this not be a judgment call

This thing we do is more of an Art than a Science & the rules are the guidelines which we go by. BUT there aren't any absolutes, always or automatics in what we do either

You never worked the MS game when one team is down by 40 & ignored their travel(s) or gave them all the 50/50 calls???

I would like to think that the good official uses his/her judgment each & every time they do/don't put air in the whistle!!

Know & understand the rules, their intent & how to apply them. But don't be a rulebook ref, be a people person who has a great feel for the game & try to make the right calls at the right times

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Really? How could this not be a judgment call

This thing we do is more of an Art than a Science & the rules are the guidelines which we go by. BUT there aren't any absolutes, always or automatics in what we do either

You never worked the MS game when one team is down by 40 & ignored their travel(s) or gave them all the 50/50 calls???

I would like to think that the good official uses his/her judgment each & every time they do/don't put air in the whistle!!

Know & understand the rules, their intent & how to apply them. But don't be a rulebook ref, be a people person who has a great feel for the game & try to make the right calls at the right times

No BB is not a "Art than a Science "; there are absolutes
The rule book was written many years ago and has not changed that much. The reason is that the rule covers the games in its entirety. Even our "judgment calls" are covered (ex incidental contact).

But to say that the rule should be "ignored" becasue a team is loosing is not right, The problem we have is that if you apply the intent of the rule one way and I apply it the other way, how can we excpect players coaches and audience to be consistant, One game a player is allowed to do "X" and in an other game they are not. The rules keep it all consitant.

I have been in a game which ended 100-2. I could not do much. The winning team coach kept on pressing, Not my place to tell him not too. The crowd and all did go wild when the loosing team scored their basket. I must admit I did smile.

All I am saying if we all understand the rules and apply them then we will all have a consitant call , and players, coaches etc will not complain.

"Over the back comes to mind" No such rule or call. But the minute coaches and players see someone who happens to be very tall put their head over a short player ... the calls start and some refs call it....

Understanding the rules is not easy, and I am not saying I know them. All I am saying is if we apply the rules consistantly with out our "ART" side the game will be consistant. We are not there to judge the game but to make sure the rules are followed.

See post to SNAGWELLS

Originally Posted by ILMalti

No BB is not a "Art than a Science "; there are absolutes

Okay

Originally Posted by ILMalti

One game a player is allowed to do "X" and in an other game they are not. The rules keep it all consitant.

If you say so... I believe the officiating team keeps it consistent though. Every game is different, the coaches should use that opportunity to teach their kids to deal with adversity as they will have to make adjustments in life. Yep life-lessons can be taught through Bball.

Originally Posted by ILMalti

I have been in a game which ended 100-2.

Did you score the 2 points

Originally Posted by ILMalti

All I am saying if we all understand the rules and apply them then we will all have a consitant call , and players, coaches etc will not complain.

HA!!!! As the players would say "are you serious!"

Originally Posted by ILMalti

"Over the back comes to mind" No such rule or call. But the minute coaches and players see someone who happens to be very tall put their head over a short player ... the calls start and some refs call it.....

I detest that as well

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Understanding the rules is not easy, and I am not saying I know them. All I am saying is if we apply the rules consistantly with out our "ART" side the game will be consistant. We are not there to judge the game but to make sure the rules are followed.

No disrespect, but I'm going to leave you with this because it's obvious that you are either new to the craft or don't work a high level of ball, yet.

Any idiot can read a rule book, pass the test & run up and down the court blowing their whistle, agreed?
We even have some that don't own a book, but sits in the stands & makes all the calls, by rule... their misconception of the rule that is. But that's another story...

In addition to great PLAY CALLING ability, COMMUNICATION SKILLS, FITNESS, PERSONAL QUALITIES & ON/OFF-COURT PRESENSE,
GAME MANAGEMENT skills are a must to be successful!! Lead officials with the R & Crew Chief mentality knows that managing players/coaches emotions, knowing the time, score, etc, offensive/defensive schemes & game situation (who's trying to do what) is key... U1s & U2s are, well, just U1s & U2s
The game within the game!!

Let me stop, I should be charging you for this information
Do you have a PayPal account?

[Adam]

Ch1town, he's really caught up on the word "judge." I've got no idea why, but that seems to be his main issue.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Ch1town, he's really caught up on the word "judge." I've got no idea why, but that seems to be his main issue.

I see, he judges even when he thinks he's not

Originally Posted by ILMalti

1) player in air with ball, any rule broken : NO << J'ment
2) Is player passing, trying holding : OP ays none << J'ment
3) defense comes from behind
4) Any illegal contact : NO << J'ment
5) Defense touches ball
6) Held ball rule applies : NO << J'ment
7) offense goes to floor with held ball
8) Rule 4.44 applies; travel whistle << J'ment

so no judgment in my mind.

Making a judgment doesn't always, absolutely, automatically require a whistle.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Okay


No disrespect, but I'm going to leave you with this because it's obvious that you are either new to the craft or don't work a high level of ball, yet.

None taken. You are right. I can only learn from experienced fellows

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Any idiot can read a rule book, pass the test & run up and down the court blowing their whistle, agreed?.

I am only in favour of understanding and applying the rules as the BB elders want it to be done. My confusion perhaps is understanding judgement call that override a rule.

Originally Posted by Ch1town

We even have some that don't own a book, but sits in the stands & makes all the calls, by rule... their misconception of the rule that is. But that's another story...

Agreed

Originally Posted by Ch1town

In addition to great PLAY CALLING ability, COMMUNICATION SKILLS, FITNESS, PERSONAL QUALITIES & ON/OFF-COURT PRESENSE,
GAME MANAGEMENT skills are a must to be successful!! Lead officials with the R & Crew Chief mentality knows that managing players/coaches emotions, knowing the time, score, etc, offensive/defensive schemes & game situation (who's trying to do what) is key... U1s & U2s are, well, just U1s & U2s
The game within the game!!

Let me stop, I should be charging you for this information
Do you have a PayPal account?

Totally agree;

Thank you

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Let me stop, I should be charging you for this information
Do you have a PayPal account?

Originally Posted by ILMalti

You are right.

Totally agree

Thank you

Not a problem, I PM'd you the fee & where to send it.
Thank YOU!

[Johnny Ringo]

Wow. Did not expect this reaction.

In my opinion, the touch and it was slight touch - not even a slap - did not prevent the shotter from shooting. He simply just returned to the floor holding the ball in a shooting position.

I too, used my judgement and called a travel. My partner said this had to be a jump ball ... I was trying to see if I can find a rule that supported my call.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Sorry but I have to ask. How can this be a judgment call?

The rule is very very specific for held ball..
The OP description says that the ball was "grazed ,touched, ball never came dislodged, loose or at anytime did player A lose control."

In addition the OP states "The shooter just never shot it."


So where does the held ball rule come to play?

why complicate the call? Judgment calls lead to problems especially when a rule can be applied without any question

So using the above logic : a TRAVEL call only

This is very much a judgment call, and you're basing your ruling on his judgment. He judged that the shot was not prevented by the contact, based on how he worded his post.

In a game, on this play, there is judgment involved. Just like there is judgment on whether contact against a shooter affects a shot, or if it is incidental.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

This is very much a judgment call, and you're basing your ruling on his judgment. He judged that the shot was not prevented by the contact, based on how he worded his post.

In a game, on this play, there is judgment involved. Just like there is judgment on whether contact against a shooter affects a shot, or if it is incidental.

What would have constituted a "held ball" in your mind, the "graze" from behind?

Travel

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

What would have constituted a "held ball" in your mind, the "graze" from behind?

Travel

Yep, travel, but it's based purely on his description of the events. "Graze" in this case is a judgment word.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Yep, travel, but it's based purely on his description of the events. "Graze" in this case is a judgment word.

So what made you say travel? the rules as decribed in 4.44 or since the "description of the play " did not apply to held ball?

That is not judgement : that is applying the play to a rule and deciding which rule it applies too.

I call the following observations "graze did to try to shoot" etc which then are put down a decision tree to see which rule to officaite on or not.

Perhaps we are saying the same thing but using the wrong words. Judgment for me means you decide regardless of what rule should apply.