Jump ball or Travel

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Yep, travel, but it's based purely on his description of the events. "Graze" in this case is a judgment word.

So what made you say travel? the rules as decribed in 4.44 or since the "description of the play " did not apply to held ball?

That is not judgement : that is applying the play to a rule and deciding which rule it applies too.

I call the following observations "graze did to try to shoot" etc which then are put down a decision tree to see which rule to officaite on or not.

Perhaps we are saying the same thing but using the wrong words. Judgment for me means you decide regardless of what rule should apply.

[BillyMac]

When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter releases the ball, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor, whether, or not, the defensive player touches the ball in the block attempt.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

When an airborne player keeps control of an attempted shot that is blocked and is unable to release the ball and returns to the floor with it, that player has not traveled; it is a held ball. If, in this situation, the shooter releases the ball, then this is simply a blocked shot and play continues. When an airborne player tries for goal, sees that the try will be blocked, purposely drops the ball, and picks up the ball after it hits the floor, that player has traveled by starting a dribble with the pivot foot off the floor, whether, or not, the defensive player touches the ball in the block attempt.

So based upon the OP, travel or held ball?
We all seem to agree on what constitues a held ball. The discsusion I believe is based on the OP, is there any doubt that this play was a travel as per rules versus judgment call.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

So based upon the OP, travel or held ball?
We all seem to agree on what constitues a held ball. The discsusion I believe is based on the OP, is there any doubt that this play was a travel as per rules versus judgment call.

Okay, let's try this again.

Anytime the defense touches the ball held by an airborne shooter who does not release before landing, you have to make a judgment. "Did the defender's touch prevent the release." Sometimes that judgment is easier than others. In the case of the OP, it seems to have been a pretty easy judgment in favor of a travel call.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Okay, let's try this again.

Anytime the defense touches the ball held by an airborne shooter who does not release before landing, you have to make a judgment. "Did the defender's touch prevent the release." Sometimes that judgment is easier than others. In the case of the OP, it seems to have been a pretty easy judgment in favor of a travel call.

but this is my "mental block", and I have simplified the thought process

1) player in air with ball, any rule broken : NO
2) Is player passing, trying holding : OP ays none
3) defense comes from behind
4) Any illegal contact : NO
5) Defense touches ball
6) Held ball rule applies : NO
7) offense goes to floor with held ball
8) Rule 4.44 applies; travel whistle

so no judgment in my mind.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

but this is my "mental block", and I have simplified the thought process

1) player in air with ball, any rule broken : NO
2) Is player passing, trying holding : OP ays none
3) defense comes from behind
4) Any illegal contact : NO
5) Defense touches ball
6) Held ball rule applies : NO
7) offense goes to floor with held ball
8) Rule 4.44 applies; travel whistle

so no judgment in my mind.

Judgment is required for you to move from 5 to 6 in your little progression here.

Let me ask you this. Why does the held ball rule not apply?

(wow, Socrates and Aristotle in one day?)

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Judgment is required for you to move from 5 to 6 in your little progression here.

Let me ask you this. Why does the held ball rule not apply?

(wow, Socrates and Aristotle in one day?)

Socrates never wrote anything down and relied on the students(Plato, socrates prized student) to put it down and Aristotle was Plato prime student,
So Plato is the rule book Please continue asking the only way to really get an understanding of the rules

The held ball rule is very specific about when a held ball occurs,I refer you to 4.25.2

The rule states "prevents an airborne player from throwing the ball or releasing it on a try" keep word prevents
the OP specifically says no change in airborne action to them or the ball: not a judgment call in this case

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

So what made you say travel? the rules as decribed in 4.44 or since the "description of the play " did not apply to held ball?

That is not judgement : that is applying the play to a rule and deciding which rule it applies too.

I call the following observations "graze did to try to shoot" etc which then are put down a decision tree to see which rule to officaite on or not.

Perhaps we are saying the same thing but using the wrong words. Judgment for me means you decide regardless of what rule should apply.

Ok, I'm not even sure what your last sentence means, to be honest. Are you saying you see judgment as determining the call regardless of the rule? I'm sorry, but that's a strawman. No one here would make that claim.

Judgment is determining whether or not the defensive touch actually prevented the ball from being released, or whether it was too light to do have any effect.

Judgment is determining whether or not that defensive contact caused the player with the ball to step on the OOB line, of if it was incidental and he was going to step OOB anyway.

Judgment is determining whether the contact on the shooter was enough to make it more substantially more difficult, or whether it was incidental.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Ok, I'm not even sure what your last sentence means, to be honest. Are you saying you see judgment as determining the call regardless of the rule? I'm sorry, but that's a strawman. No one here would make that claim.

No I was trying to understand what "judgement" means to you.

I am trying to understand why based on the OP there should be any type of "judgment". There was no "held ball" according to the description on the rule.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

No I was trying to understand what "judgement" means to you.

I am trying to understand why based on the OP there should be any type of "judgment". There was no "held ball" according to the description on the rule.

Since we posted concurrently, I'll repost what is essentially an answer to your post here.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Anytime the defense touches the ball held by an airborne shooter who does not release before landing, you have to make a judgment. "Did the defender's touch prevent the release." Sometimes that judgment is easier than others. In the case of the OP, it seems to have been a pretty easy judgment in favor of a travel call.