Jump ball or out of bounds?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Which is why you need to wait to blow your whistle and NOT to immediately call a held ball.

Except that the case book says to do exactly the opposite of what you write.

Originally Posted by BillyMac

4.25.2 SITUATION: A1 jumps to try for goal or to pass the ball. B1 leaps or reaches and is able to put his/her hands on the ball and keep A1 from releasing it. A1: (a) returns to the floor with the ball; or (b) is unable to control the ball and it drops to the floor. RULING: A held ball results immediately in (a) and (b) when airborne A1 is prevented from releasing the ball to pass or try for goal.

Of course, you can cling to your mistaken belief as well if you wish.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Except that the case book says to do exactly the opposite of what you write.



Of course, you can cling to your mistaken belief as well if you wish.

Of course, what you wrote as no bearing at all to the play I was describing, as neither a nor b happened in my scenario. But we already know how lazy you are when it comes to reading.

[just another ref]

The key to this is how we interpret the word "prevents."

An opponent.......... prevents an airborne player from releasing the ball.



Can it be considered that the opponent prevented the release, if the offensive player is able to pull the ball back from the contact, and subsequently release it before committing a violation?

I say yes.

[Back In The Saddle]

Are you suggesting that if the defender keeps the shooter from getting his shot off, but then the shooter tries a second time and succeeds that the defender actually prevented the first attempted shot? Do you mean to suggest that the successful try was really ... oh, I don't know, another play?

Can't be right. That makes too much sense.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The key to this is how we interpret the word "prevents."

An opponent.......... prevents an airborne player from releasing the ball.



Can it be considered that the opponent prevented the release, if the offensive player is able to pull the ball back from the contact, and subsequently release it before committing a violation?

I say yes.

I say no. If the airborne shooter is able to release the shot before returning to earth then I say he wasn't prevented from releasing his shot. It is still the same play.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

If the airborne shooter is able to release the shot before returning to earth then I say he wasn't prevented from releasing his shot. It is still the same play.

Sorry for not answering earlier, to this and your other post.

I still stand by what i said.

If i read you statement rightly "is able to release the ball" means that the opponent did not prevent the ball release at any point that they were airborne. thus no held ball.
hence my statement

Quote:
Originally Posted by ILMalti
But from your own MSG7 you were able to release it, thus you were not prevented thus no held ball.

Which from this post you concurr

On the other hand if the opponent had such a firm hand on the ball that you could not release the ball then a held ball.

I would not blow the whistle on "touching of the ball" that is not "preventing" a release, in this case you are right "wait to blow your whistle and NOT to immediately call a held ball." on the other hand once I see an offensive player and defensive player cup the ball tightly a Held ball shoudl be called.

From this an other previous postings we should ask How much effort was made to release the ball and was there any time in this struggle when the ball was held tightly between the offensive and defensive players? (Easier said then done)? If there was then a "held ball" is the right rulling and an immediate whistle is required or so I think.

From the OP, one can only assume that a release was not initiated (ie no air between offensive hand and ball before the "stuffed" situation occurs. If this is the case held ball (not jump ball as mentioned in OP, only mention for clarity sake) should be ruled, If there was air between the offensive hand and the defender before the stuffing then we have a new thread....

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

From this an other previous postings we should ask How much effort was made to release the ball and was there any time in this struggle when the ball was held tightly between the offensive and defensive players? (Easier said then done)? If there was then a "held ball" is the right rulling and an immediate whistle is required or so I think.

Other than adding that in these situations, the benefit of the doubt goes to a held ball (IOW, I wouldn't ask "how much" effort was made); I'd say you're showing good judgment. I think you're making it too difficult. It's a quick judgment call, and you won't have time to ask these questions before rendering a call.

One question, "Did the defender prevent the release?" If there is any doubt whatsoever in your mind, it's a held ball.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I say no. If the airborne shooter is able to release the shot before returning to earth then I say he wasn't prevented from releasing his shot. It is still the same play.

Forget the airborne part for a minute, since it is not part of the definition of a held ball. The same play takes place with the offensive player standing on the floor. He raises the ball to shoot. The defender is there waiting for him. He effectively prevents the release.

Question: How long does contact have to be maintained before you whistle a held ball?

Answer: There is no specific amount of time.

Therefore, is it conceivable for the above to take place while the player is airborne? It may be the exception and not the rule, but no doubt in my mind it could happen.

[ILMalti]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Forget the airborne part for a minute, since it is not part of the definition of a held ball. .

Disagree Airborne is very important since rule 4.25.2 states "prevents an airborne player..."

4.25.1 specifically says "opponents have their HANDS so firmly" (emphasis added), ie both hands ie 4 hands on the ball

[Adam]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Disagree Airborne is very important since rule 4.25.2 states "prevents an airborne player..."

4.25.1 specifically says "opponents have their HANDS so firmly" (emphasis added), ie both hands ie 4 hands on the ball

And the 4-25-1 statement "firmly" does not apply to the airborne player noted in 4-25-2.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Disagree Airborne is very important since rule 4.25.2 states "prevents an airborne player..."

4.25.1 specifically says "opponents have their HANDS so firmly" (emphasis added), ie both hands ie 4 hands on the ball

What?? You think players must have both hands on the ball to have a held ball??

Hands = plural = more than one hand

Two opponents @ one hand each = two hands = possible held ball

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Disagree Airborne is very important since rule 4.25.2 states "prevents an airborne player..."

4.25.1 specifically says "opponents have their HANDS so firmly" (emphasis added), ie both hands ie 4 hands on the ball

Oh really? Might want to rethink that one. Collectively, each having either one or two hands on the ball satisfies the clause "opponents have their hands so firmly". If two players have a hold of the ball such that it would take excessive force to free it...it is a jump ball. Forget about how many hands are on the ball....two hands (one from each) is adequate. It just happens that one hand on the ball is rarely enough for a player to retain their hold on the ball but it can be done.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Can it be considered that the opponent prevented the release, if the offensive player is able to pull the ball back from the contact, and subsequently release it before committing a violation?

I say yes.

Agree.

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Are you suggesting that if the defender keeps the shooter from getting his shot off, but then the shooter tries a second time and succeeds that the defender actually prevented the first attempted shot? Do you mean to suggest that the successful try was really ... oh, I don't know, another play?

Can't be right. That makes too much sense.

Agree.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I say no. If the airborne shooter is able to release the shot before returning to earth then I say he wasn't prevented from releasing his shot. It is still the same play.

Disagree.
PS This is exactly the play that I had in mind when writing earlier that you are mistaken. You are screwing the defensive player and giving the offensive player an opportunity which he doesn't deserve.

Do you also count the goal when an airborne player in the act of shooting is fouled causing him to lose control of the ball, but he is able to regain it while still in the air and shoot and score? In order to be consistent you would have to count that second attempt as "the same play."

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Do you also count the goal when an airborne player in the act of shooting is fouled causing him to lose control of the ball, but he is able to regain it while still in the air and shoot and score? In order to be consistent you would have to count that second attempt as "the same play."

I don't see what one play has to do with the other. In my scenario, which actually happened to me in a pick-up game, I elevated and attempted to shoot, the first defender got his hand on top of the ball as I was elevating. As I was coming back down I was able to pull the ball back and release it. The 2nd defender blocked my shot. There is no way in heck that if this play occurred in a regulation game that I would blow my whistle and rule a held ball.

I see a lot of athletic plays where I live and officiate. I have seen players get their shot "capped" and still get their shot away from all kinds of crazy angles AND make the basket. The case play you referenced earlier in the thread did not address plays in which an airborne shooter is actually able get his shot off after initially getting it "capped".

BTW, in your quoted play above my instincts would be to count the basket. Now, if there is a rule/case/interp from NCAA and/or NFHS that says my instinct is wrong then I will adjust accordingly.

Oh yeah, I forgot: In honor of our more kinder, gentler forum.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I don't see what one play has to do with the other.

They both involve a player making an extraordinary play. With a dead ball.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

In my scenario, which actually happened to me in a pick-up game, I elevated and attempted to shoot, the first defender got his hand on top of the ball as I was elevating.

Nice defensive play.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

As I was coming back down I was able to pull the ball back and release it.

Very nice, athletic play on your part. Too bad it doesn't count.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

The 2nd defender blocked my shot.

Nice play on his part. Won't help his stats though.

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

There is no way in heck that if this play occurred in a regulation game that I would blow my whistle and rule a held ball.

Now that may be true. We could have a very ... enthusiastic discussion about whether this reaction falls into the "that way it's really done" category. Same with the play where the shooter gets capped, and then loses the ball. I've never seen either of these plays blown dead immediately.

But, by rule, it's a held ball, the ball is dead, and the extraordinary second effort is irrelevant.