Closely Guarded Dilemma

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Question for NCAA-W. If the play starts outside the 3-point line in the corner and then is passed into the post is the Trail going to get that count or will this be the Lead's new primary.

In NCAA-W, the corner and post are both in L's primary. In the case where the ball is in the corner, L would be focused on that matchup, while the T will cover the post players as a secondary matchup. If the pass goes into the post, as I understand it, it will be L's decision whether or not to follow the ball into the post, or stay with the matchup in the corner. If there's an intense trap in the corner for example, L could stay with that matchup, and the L's body language will tell the T they will officiate that trap and the T needs to stay in the post. If there's no real matchup in the corner, the L will follow the ball into the post.

So, to answer your question, theoretically either one could have that count. More often than not the L will have it though.

[Adam]

To me, a defender is guarding simply by virtue of being between the ball and the basket. The only goal of the defense that never really changes is to protect the basket, even if the priorities happen to change. Even a stalling offense will take an open layup.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

If the rules were applied as the book says we would have a consistency across the board. Until the rule changes or is officially interpreted differently then it should be "ruled/administered" as described in 4.23 and 9.10.2-3. From what I recall the CG count is to eliminate delay tactics and get the game moving.

Based on some threads logic , we should not have a BC 10 second count if the offense move EAST to WEST? I could imagine the "noise" this would create I realize that this is a stresh in my discussion

If the rule is followed, nobody can argue. It is in black and white (so to speak) supported by the appropiate BB bodies. I think it is when officials ( I am a young official) who know the rulling and apply them at their discretion is one of the reasons we have so many issues with fans, players and coaches .

For example would a diagonal movement constitue a drive to the basket or just a East-2-West move?

The offense have up to 14 seconds (4.9 sec hold, 4.9 sec dribble 4.9 sec hold integer) to stop a violation from happening that is a very long time and credit should be given to the defense for preventing the ball to move towards the basket.

You are right. We all do much better when we stick to the rules. Of course, that requires knowing and understanding the rules. But they're not always straightforward and easily understood. The reason for this discussion is that the closely guarded rule really is unclear. Some pretty knowledgeable and reasonable people have weighed in and the final answer is...still unclear.

Or at least the HS rule, perhaps the FIBA rule reads differently and is more clear?

So...what do you think? If the dribbler is attempting to run out the clock, is not advancing toward the basket and not intending to, and the guard is trailing along "squarely behind" him, is he still guarding the dribbler? What role does "in the path" play in making that determination?

The rulebook itself tells us that it is necessary to understand the intent of the rules to know how to intelligently apply them to game situations. So, how do you feel the intent of the closely guarded rule factors in to its application? Do you take "forcing the action" into considerations when faced with a situation where you have to decide whether to count? Do you consider rewarding/not penalizing the defense when deciding whether to count?

And what does "credit should be given to the defense" mean? Do you realize that making such a statement indicates that you have a personal philosophy toward this rule that colors your thinking about it?

Isn't this fun?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Interpretation? Okay, I guess so. I'd say my understanding of the written rules, which is what I quoted. But we are talking about application of the written rules, and I suppose it's fair to call that interpretation.
....

But I think we're largely in agreement on the basic sentiment. By the criteria we have chosen to base our judgment on, in the OP the would-be guard is not actually guarding the dribbler. So why count?

Good...that is what I thought you really meant but just wanted to probe the statement about the defender being "behind" the dribbler.

Sounds like we're on the same practical page.

You know, if the offensive kid in the OP was coached correctly, the whole closely guarded thread wouldn't have happened if he would have just ripped a silent, but deadly quaff towards the defender.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

You are right. We all do much better when we stick to the rules. Of course, that requires knowing and understanding the rules. But they're not always straightforward and easily understood. The reason for this discussion is that the closely guarded rule really is unclear. Some pretty knowledgeable and reasonable people have weighed in and the final answer is...still unclear.
....

Isn't this fun?

I was just going to answer in about the same way...but you saved me a lot of typing.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Well, I like that, even though I've been told the L never has a closely-guarded count.

Now, just to get the discussion back on track, and this question is more for BITS I suppose - since the defender B1 is behind post player A1, would you not count if you knew A1 was not going to make a move for the basket and was simply looking to pass it out to an open guard? Defensive player is behind the dribbler, dribbler is moving "E-W", or even away from the basket? Does proximity to the basket have any effect on whether a count is started or not? If so, how far away from the basket does the player have to be before you decide a count is no longer necessary, and why?

All good questions. Earlier I said "never" about counting when a post player has the ball.... Never is too strong a word. I do not have a count when it appears likely the post player is or will make a move to the basket. I don't disagree that the post player is closely guarded in this situation, but (at least around here) it isn't done and isn't expected. You're more likely to hear comments about a three second violation in the post than a five second violation.

But if abandons that move, especially if he dribbles out from the post or the defense collapses on him, I'll begin a count. In my mind that is a different play and a different situation.

As for the dribbler moving E-W, it depends on what the defender does. If he maintains a position between the dribbler and the basket, I'll start/keep my count. If defender gets "left behind", then I'm not likely to start or keep my count. The deciding factor really is whether the defender is still guarding or not. If he's just trying to catch up with the dribbler so he can start guarding him again, he isn't "in the path" and isn't guarding.

The rules make no mention of distance from the basket, if you're in the front court, you can have a count. You are more likely to have a count the farther out you go. After all, the offense will pull the ball out when they want to burn clock, and that's the issue the rule exists to address. As you get closer to the basket, the offense will normally either be moving the ball, looking for an opportunity to attack the basket, or they will be taking it to the hole because they have found a clear path.

But that, of course, can change if the ball settles in any one place, including the post, for very long. But, IMHO, we shouldn't be in a hurry to start a count in these cases.

[ILMalti]

Ok before I answer we need to agree on some stuff.

Once B1 (defendent) has planted both feet on the playing court and faces A1 (torso to torso) legal guarding position has been obtained. This can last 1 sec or 10 minutes rule does not indicate length of time. (4.23.1-2) . This establishing of LGP can happen when A1 is at his/her BC whilst B1 is in theirs. Rule says that quite clearly (there is no minimum distance required...."(4.23.1)). Agreed? (Note there are specific rules for A1 and B1 ). Also B1 might just be standing feet planted and A1 places their torso facing B1... Legal guarding, nothing about guard having to initiate.

Now rule continues saying that if the distance (toe to toe(?)) between A1 and B1 is 6feet or less and in the FC then we have a Cloesly guarded situation which requires a count if in the FC of A1(9.10). Agreed?

So before going forth, When would a guarded situation end? I do not recall any rules specifically answering that, however by ommision one would say the current Defense becomes the offense; no TC, dead ball....


Once legal guarded position has been established, the rule specifically says the guard "is not required to continue facing the opponent". (4.23.3 a-e)
which means that the offensive player can turn around and give the LG defender their back.

So once B1 has established LG position and closes on A1 to a distance of 6 feet or less, then a count should start(assuming we are in the FC) OR if B1 had obtained LG and A1 advances towards B1 and is within the 6 feet radius again a count should be started.

This is as simple as it gets.

Now to answer "

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

And what does "credit should be given to the defense" mean? Do you realize that making such a statement indicates that you have a personal philosophy toward this rule that colors your thinking about it?

Isn't this fun?

As far as I see it there are 2 teams on the court. So any officiate deviation from the rules could give an advatage to one side or the other. We are not on the floor to decide which rules are to be applied or to be moved aside for game A versus B.
My philosohy about this rule is simple. If legal Guarding was obtained and A1 and B1 are within 6feet of each other in the FC of the offense a count HAS to start; the rule says it.
If the defense is good enough to keep the offensive away from the basket they obviously are doing a good job ; same if the offense manages to move past the CGP. On the other hands if the offense wants to waste time, this rule will make sure they play or loose the ball (edited ILMALTi).

Yes this is a lot of fun, since by this type of discussion we open our minds

Thank you

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Ok before I answer we need to agree on some stuff.

Once B1 (defendent) has planted both feet on the playing court and faces A1 (torso to torso) legal guarding position has been obtained. This can last 1 sec or 10 minutes rule does not indicate length of time. (4.23.1-2) . This establishing of LGP can happen when A1 is at his/her BC whilst B1 is in theirs. Rule says that quite clearly (there is no minimum distance required...."(4.23.1)). Agreed? (Note there are specific rules for A1 and B1 ). Also B1 might just be standing feet planted and A1 places their torso facing B1... Legal guarding, nothing about guard having to initiate.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Now rule continues saying that if the distance (toe to toe(?)) between A1 and B1 is 6feet or less and in the FC then we have a Cloesly guarded situation which requires a count if in the FC of A1(9.10). Agreed?

Agreed....as long as B1 is actually in a guarding position..."in the path." For example, facing A1 at a distance of less than 6 feet while trailing A1 starting from the center circle and continuing down the lane towards the basket is not in a guarding position.

Originally Posted by ILMalti

So before going forth, When would a guarded situation end? I do not recall any rules specifically answering that, however by ommision one would say the current Defense becomes the offense; no TC, dead ball....

When the guard is no longer in the path....since the definition of guarding requires such.

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Once legal guarded position has been established, the rule specifically says the guard "is not required to continue facing the opponent". (4.23.3 a-e)
which means that the offensive player can turn around and give the LG defender their back.

Mixing two different things....the guard is not required to continue facing...this implies nothing about the dribbler.

Originally Posted by ILMalti

So once B1 has established LG position and closes on A1 to a distance of 6 feet or less, then a count should start(assuming we are in the FC) OR if B1 had obtained LG and A1 advances towards B1 and is within the 6 feet radius again a count should be started.

This is as simple as it gets.

Again, as long as B1 is in A1's "path"....not just within 6 ft. and facing.

And it is all so simple except for the definition of "path". What is "in the path". I've clearly demonstarted in a prior post that "path" can't logically mean the direction the dribbler is moving...but that it can only something else...the path the offensive team would like to go or [roughly] "the path" to the basket.

[ILMalti]

Hello CR

Need to do some thinking ,research and re-read your posts.

[ILMalti]

OK The question to ask is : Where in the rules does it say that to obtain Legal guarding position the path is important?

In the definition of "Guarding" is the only place that "path" is mentioned. (4.23.1)

We cannot add the word "path" to 4.23.2 or any of the remaining articles.

Remember (and I realize you know) that you do not have to guard a person who is moving or has the ball. That is why 4.23.4-5 are rules.

We need to concentrate first on 4.23.3 which states "After the initial legal guarding position is obtained....." there is NO mention of path ..... So "path" meaning and importance disappear when the "initial legal guarding position" has been established. (2 feet on floor torso-2-torso).

Hence all your discusions based on "path" are null and void. Sorry

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

OK The question to ask is : Where in the rules does it say that to obtain Legal guarding position the path is important?

In the definition of "Guarding" is the only place that "path" is mentioned. (4.23.1)

We cannot add the word "path" to 4.23.2 or any of the remaining articles.

Remember (and I realize you know) that you do not have to guard a person who is moving or has the ball. That is why 4.23.4-5 are rules.

We need to concentrate first on 4.23.3 which states "After the initial legal guarding position is obtained....." there is NO mention of path ..... So "path" meaning and importance disappear when the "initial legal guarding position" has been established. (2 feet on floor torso-2-torso).

Hence all your discusions based on "path" are null and void. Sorry

Legal Guarding Position, or LGP, is an extension of guarding. Think of it as regular old guarding with some extras. That's some extra requirements, and some extra protections. None of which negate anything to do with regular old guarding.

[ILMalti]

Ok then let me ask

how does "guarding' start?
Is there a difference between "legally guarding" and guarding.

One is defined by rules as to how it is established the other is not?

Since there is only a count on "close legal guarding" then i stand with my originial post.

and I do not believe i am playng with words

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

OK The question to ask is : Where in the rules does it say that to obtain Legal guarding position the path is important?

In the definition of "Guarding" is the only place that "path" is mentioned. (4.23.1)

We cannot add the word "path" to 4.23.2 or any of the remaining articles.

Remember (and I realize you know) that you do not have to guard a person who is moving or has the ball. That is why 4.23.4-5 are rules.

We need to concentrate first on 4.23.3 which states "After the initial legal guarding position is obtained....." there is NO mention of path ..... So "path" meaning and importance disappear when the "initial legal guarding position" has been established. (2 feet on floor torso-2-torso).

Hence all your discusions based on "path" are null and void. Sorry

The base definition of guarding requires the defender to be in the path of an opponent. If a player is not "guarding" they are not "closely guarding" and don't have "legal guarding position" or anything else to do with guarding. I would think that point should be obvious but I guess not.

I agree that you don't have to guard a person who is moving or has the ball but what does that have to do with the closely guarded count?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Ok then let me ask

how does "guarding' start?

By placing the body in the path of an offensive opponent....nothing more.

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Is there a difference between "legally guarding" and guarding.

Yes. LGP has additional requirements....facing and two feet down initially.
LGP has restrictions on what movements are permitted and offers protection against being guilty of a foul when the defender is moving within the parameters of LGP. Guarding doesn't have any restrictions but offers no protection either.

Originally Posted by ILMalti

One is defined by rules as to how it is established the other is not?

Both are defined. The first article defined guarding. The next two defined LGP.

Originally Posted by ILMalti

Since there is only a count on "close legal guarding" then i stand with my originial post.

and I do not believe i am playng with words

The count is not restricted to "close legal guarding"....just "closely guarded". LGP is not required for a count...although it may often be present.

Legal Guarding and Closely Guarding are both subsets of guarding. They partially overlap but do not completely overlap.

EDIT:

Image B1 who takes a position between A1 (dribbler) and the basket (guarding). However, B1 never faces A1 (no LGP). A1 is furiously attempting to drive to the basket but B1 constantly moves to cut off A1's path while never facing A1. There is never any contact so LGP is not relevant. However, B1 continuously maintains a position that is 2'-4' from A1.

B1 has satisfied the requirements for a count. However, B1 has not satisfied the requirements for LGP and is not protected from being guilty of a foul if B1 is moving at the time of contact...even if B1 is moving laterally.