Act of shooting

Most coast to coast plays I've seen end near the rim.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Just because a player has "gathered" the ball, (ended the dribble) is he always entitled to two shots if he heaves up a try after getting fouled?
I say no.

Concur (to a point) but let be perfectly clear as you're making too much out of this sitch.

A1 gathers the ball outside the 28 ft line after walking the ball into the f/c & heaves it up after a whistle for hand checking is NOT gonna get you to the line if I'm the calling official.

In a coast to coast play (as previously described) North/South to the rim play, I believe the player has gathered to alight. Not to avoid being trapped or because of losing the ball. His feet never stopped, there was progression to the bucket, he gathered & then came contact... it was all in stride.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

In the OP, the player "took two steps" -- so that's traveling

No sir, forgive me for my poor verbage but please believe me when I say A1 did not exceed the prescribed limits.

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I agree that there can (and often needs to be) a "patient whistle" on plays similar to the OP.

I think the timing of the whistle was a big factor in the officials decision for the throw in. There was contact & there was a whistle almost immediately.
Had there been patience, it would have been no doubt he was going up.
I think some verbal communication like, (tweet) "no shot" or (tweet) "going up" instead of (tweet) holding up a fist and allowing the play to finish, then saying "endline" would've helped as well.

Personally, I try to allow them get to the rim after (the *slap* on the arm type of contact occurs--- you know, sounds worse than what it was) then come back & get it if they miss.
Lets me know I did a good job on that play when all the defensive players/fans/coaches (who thought they got away with one) get upset that it was such a LATE call

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Personally, I try to allow them get to the rim after (the *slap* on the arm type of contact occurs--- you know, sounds worse than what it was) then come back & get it if they miss.
Lets me know I did a good job on that play when all the defensive players/fans/coaches (who thought they got away with one) get upset that it was such a LATE call

Personally, I never get a foul just because the shot missed. If I think it affected it, I'll come back and get it while the shot's in the air. If I think the player had a good shot after the contact, I'll let it go regardless and simply explain to his coach, "The contact didn't affect the play, coach."

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Personally, I never get a foul just because the shot missed. If I think it affected it, I'll come back and get it while the shot's in the air. If I think the player had a good shot after the contact, I'll let it go regardless and simply explain to his coach, "The contact didn't affect the play, coach."

Same here, I come back & get it if I judge that the result of the contact affects the shot attempt.

That being said, how can you determine if the contact affected the play unless you let the play finish?

Are you saying that you've already made your mind up while the play is still in the developement stage of SDF?

In my opinion you can't judge the result of the marginal contact until the play has finished ie; the try has ended. On a shot, I dont believe the play has ended because team control has ended.

For the record, I'm speaking of marginal contact *slap* on the forearm on the way to the bucket that you decide wasn't marginal afterall because it affected the shot. Had the shot gone, then you don't upgrade it to a cheap And 1, it's still marginal.

Obvious fouls, are another story. I believe we should get those when they happen... nothing to decide about there.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

That being said, how can you determine if the contact affected the play unless you let the play finish?

I can't tell you what's right, only how I do it.

In my opinion, we get paid to determine whether the contact affects the shot. To me, that does not get determined by whether the shot goes in, but by whether the shot is made significantly more difficult. IMO, this can be determined by the time the shot is in the air. If the shot is made signficantly more difficult but still goes in, the shooter deserves his free throw.

If the shot is not made more difficult but still misses, the shooter does not deserve two free throws. YMMV.

If it's borderline, I'll probably lean towards a no-call.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I can't tell you what's right, only how I do it.

In my opinion, we get paid to determine whether the contact affects the shot. To me, that does not get determined by whether the shot goes in, but by whether the shot is made significantly more difficult. IMO, this can be determined by the time the shot is in the air. If the shot is made signficantly more difficult but still goes in, the shooter deserves his free throw.

If the shot is not made more difficult but still misses, the shooter does not deserve two free throws. YMMV.

If it's borderline, I'll probably lean towards a no-call.

I don't agree, but I respect it sir!

There's gotta be a reason you've had success in multiple State associations. Longevity is a real tale-tell.

I'm just trying to find my way

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

I don't agree, but I respect it sir!

There's gotta be a reason you've had success in multiple State associations. Longevity is a real tale-tell.

I'm just trying to find my way

Let's not get too caught up in my success. I'm still doing a mostly JV schedule here. 2 years here, 2 years there hasn't helped, to be sure, but I'm not exactly busting down the doors to the state tournament yet.

Personally, this is an area where a lot of people differ I think.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

A1 dribbles the length of the court & immediately upon gathering the ball at the FT line, B1 fouls A1 (tweet). A1 takes 2 steps & misses the shot.

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Most coast to coast plays I've seen end near the rim.




In a coast to coast play (as previously described) North/South to the rim play.....

This was the main reason I said we could not automatically assume from the OP that a shooting foul was involved. In my estimation, a player taking the ball "to the rim" does not pick up his dribble at the ft line.


exception: Lebron James doing the crab (or any other kind) dribble

Originally Posted by just another ref

In my estimation, a player taking the ball "to the rim" does not pick up his dribble at the ft line.

Depends on the players skill at the level you work...

When I'm doing 4th graders @ the Y on Saturday mornings, no I dont expect to see that play.

When I'm working some quality mens ball with Pro-AM players & a teammate is yelling "wolf wolf" to A1 who is rapidly dribbling toward the basket, it's not out of the ordinary for him to just pick up the dribble & alight for the little teardrop floater down the lane.

[truerookie]

I use the rule of thumb. Nine times out of ten if there is initial contact there will be prolonged contact. This is why I stay with the play to see what happens.

Especially on a drive towards the basket, I just be patience with the whistle and come back and get the prolonged contact once the trying motion for goal begins.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This was the main reason I said we could not automatically assume from the OP that a shooting foul was involved. In my estimation, a player taking the ball "to the rim" does not pick up his dribble at the ft line.

Well, when do you say a try actually starts? Can you give me a couple of concrete examples of the deliniation between another motion/action ending and the try starting?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Well, when do you say a try actually starts? Can you give me a couple of concrete examples of the deliniation between another motion/action ending and the try starting?

The whole point was that it is difficult to put on paper a concrete example of when the try has started. These are plays which, in my opinion, simply must be seen and judged individually as they happen. When a player gather the dribble and goes up for the shot, the time in between may be a negligible. But this same player may also pause in between for any number of reasons. Bottom line: A player ends a dribble and "immediately" releases a shot. Is it possible for a foul which occurs after the dribble ended to not be a shooting foul? yes

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The whole point was that it is difficult to put on paper a concrete example of when the try has started. These are plays which, in my opinion, simply must be seen and judged individually as they happen. When a player gather the dribble and goes up for the shot, the time in between may be a negligible. But this same player may also pause in between for any number of reasons. Bottom line: A player ends a dribble and "immediately" releases a shot. Is it possible for a foul which occurs after the dribble ended to not be a shooting foul? yes

Well, aren't the rules written on paper?

While I don't necessarily disagree that there can be a distinctive "pause" between gathering the dribble and starting a try, in most cases that "pause" doesn't exist. That's why I asked you to give me your specific idea as to when a try starts. Are you saying, for example, that on a driving layup to the basket, there is a period of time (however small) between when the player gathers the ball from the dribble, and when the try/shot actually starts? I'm not talking about the drive, stop, head fake one way, shot the other way; I'm simply talking about the normal drive and layup.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

While I don't necessarily disagree that there can be a distinctive "pause" between gathering the dribble and starting a try, in most cases that "pause" doesn't exist. That's why I asked you to give me your specific idea as to when a try starts. Are you saying, for example, that on a driving layup to the basket, there is a period of time (however small) between when the player gathers the ball from the dribble, and when the try/shot actually starts? I'm not talking about the drive, stop, head fake one way, shot the other way; I'm simply talking about the normal drive and layup.

To answer this, one would need a definition of when "gathering" starts and ends. I'm saying that the try does not start when the dribble ends, (when the ball is touched with two hands) but with some subsequent movement, which may be then recognized as part of a try. In many cases, these two separate actions may occur so close together that it might be impossible to separate the two.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

To answer this, one would need a definition of when "gathering" starts and ends. I'm saying that the try does not start when the dribble ends, (when the ball is touched with two hands) but with some subsequent movement, which may be then recognized as part of a try. In many cases, these two separate actions may occur so close together that it might be impossible to separate the two.

(Which one of us is arguing with the possum?...)

We don't need a definition of "gathering". We already have a definition of when a dribble ends (4-15-4). We already have a definition of "continuous motion" (4-11). 4-11-2 is particularly relevant, in that it states: "...and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball". In the OP, the player was already holding the ball (dribble had ended), and stepping towards the basket (allowed in 4-11-2, assuming the foot movements were legal), so the foul would still be considered a shooting foul.

I'm still curious as to where specifically you feel a try actually starts? You seem to be saying, even on a straight drive for a layup, that there is some action/motion that happens in between when the player ends the dribble and when the try/shot actually starts. What is that action/motion? Now, I agree that a fake would preceed a try, so if a foul occured during a shot fake it would not be considered part of continuous motion. But, going back to the OP, if A1 ends the dribble on a fast drive near the FT line with both feet off the ground, the first step would be considered establishing the pivot foot, the second step would be lifting the pivot foot, and then the shot leaves the hand. Are you saying one of those actions, perhaps establishing the pivot foot, is not part of the shooting motion?

This discussion does seem to point out that many officials, coaches, and players are not aware that a try, and continuous motion, by rule, begins sooner than they think. This leads to many officials not awarding FT's on some plays where they should be awarded.