Act of shooting

[BOFARMA]

[QUOTE=Ch1town;602096]Mens wreck last night:

A1 dribbles the length of the court & immediately upon gathering the ball at the FT line, B1 fouls A1 (tweet). A1 takes 2 steps & misses the shot.

[QUOTE=Snaqwells;602743]As we all know, 2 steps has nothing to do with whether a player traveled. It's all on where the feet were when the ball was gathered.

We only have what Ch1town gave us. Most of the time, when a player is dribbling, his feet are on the floor. Upon gathering the ball ? Snaqwells,This is when you find a pivot foot. Now if A1 takes 2 steps, Let's say 3 steps, 4 steps.
No shot, inbound the ball.
You can give 2 shots , with the five year old kids.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Does it say that?

What about an up-and-under move? If the foul occurs while A1 is bringing the ball down and around the defender, are you saying the "shot" only occurs while the ball is back on the way up?

I don't think the key word is up. I think the key word is motion, but for it to be a shot at the basket, sooner or later it's gonna have to go up. As for your example, an up and under move, if the shooter gets whacked while going under, I don't think anybody would have a problem calling that part of the shooting motion.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BOFARMA

We only have what Ch1town gave us. Most of the time, when a player is dribbling, his feet are on the floor. Upon gathering the ball ? Snaqwells,This is when you find a pivot foot. Now if A1 takes 2 steps, Let's say 3 steps, 4 steps.
No shot, inbound the ball.
You can give 2 shots , with the five year old kids.

I'm aware of the traveling rule, but thanks for the breakdown. However, on a coast-to-coast drive, players rarely gather the ball with a foot on the floor; this is why layups look like two steps. Is "takes 2 steps" really accurate? No, because he's really only stepping once before jumping once the pivot foot hits the floor.

That said, the popular perception is that it's two steps. And again, the obvious point of the OP was about the shooting motion starting, not questioning whether the player traveled. And Ch1town had already clarified that point in this post:

Originally Posted by Ch1town

No sir, forgive me for my poor verbage but please believe me when I say A1 did not exceed the prescribed limits.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I don't think the key word is up. I think the key word is motion, but for it to be a shot at the basket, sooner or later it's gonna have to go up. As for your example, an up and under move, if the shooter gets whacked while going under, I don't think anybody would have a problem calling that part of the shooting motion.

Exactly. In the OP, I believe his frustration was in being told that if A1 is fouled during the step(s) preceding the release, that is not considered part of the shot. Continuous motion (4-11) tells us there is more to "the habitual throwing movement" than simply moving the arms upward immediately prior to releasing the ball.

I think there are still a number of officials that unfairly penalize a player by calling a foul "before the shot", when in fact it is during the shooting motion. The "habitual throwing movement" can include foot and body movements, even a pivot. It doesn't have to include only "going up for the shot".

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I think there are still a number of officials that unfairly penalize a player by calling a foul "before the shot", when in fact it is during the shooting motion.

Great job of getting to the rim, now take it out & start all over again

[IREFU2]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Really? Are you being realistic now? How many times have you seen a player dribbling on the move do this?

A player doing what the OP is doing is either going to shoot, pass, or travel. He is not going to stop on a dime. And if the player is fouled after stopping the dribble and before travelling then we as official need to judge whether he was shooting or passing. Way too often, IMO, HS officials want to make a point (often theactrically) of calling the foul "on the floor" or "before the shot" without any regard at all to continous motion or habitual throwing movement.

See the whole play.

Maybe in the NBE!!!!!

Originally Posted by IREFU2

Maybe in the NBE!!!!!

1. Straight out of the HS rule book:
SECTION 11 CONTINUOUS MOTION

ART.1...Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals and free throws, but it has no significance unless there is a foul by the defense during the interval which begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.

ART.2...If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball.

2. Straight out of the NCAA rule book:
SECTION 14. Continuous Motion

Continuous motion applies to a try or tap for field goals or free throws, but it has no significance unless there is a foul by the defense during the interval which begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try or with the touching on a tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight.

3. Straight out of the NBA Casebook:
RULE 4 - SECTION XI

46. Player A1 is fouled just as he is completing his dribble and gathering the ball. If he continues his shooting motion and scores a successful basket, how many free throws are awarded?

Since the player’s shooting motion continued and he was fouled upon gathering the ball, the basket shall count and Player A1 will receive one free throw attempt.

[Adam]

yep, they're virtually the same. I love it when you count a basket and hear, "This isn't the NBA" from the coach.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

yep, they're virtually the same. I love it when you count a basket and hear, "This isn't the NBA" from the coach.

One time, after a coach was whining to me about my partner's call, I told him that the rule is the same whether it's the NBA, college, or high school. He was incredulous.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

One time, after a coach was whining to me about my partner's call, I told him that the rule is the same whether it's the NBA, college, or high school. He was incredulous.

Right, that's why I just walk away at that point any more. Best of all worlds.
I have someone to write about here, I get to walk away, and I get to feel smug at the same time.