Act of shooting

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

To answer this, one would need a definition of when "gathering" starts and ends. I'm saying that the try does not start when the dribble ends, (when the ball is touched with two hands) but with some subsequent movement, which may be then recognized as part of a try. In many cases, these two separate actions may occur so close together that it might be impossible to separate the two.

(Which one of us is arguing with the possum?...)

We don't need a definition of "gathering". We already have a definition of when a dribble ends (4-15-4). We already have a definition of "continuous motion" (4-11). 4-11-2 is particularly relevant, in that it states: "...and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball". In the OP, the player was already holding the ball (dribble had ended), and stepping towards the basket (allowed in 4-11-2, assuming the foot movements were legal), so the foul would still be considered a shooting foul.

I'm still curious as to where specifically you feel a try actually starts? You seem to be saying, even on a straight drive for a layup, that there is some action/motion that happens in between when the player ends the dribble and when the try/shot actually starts. What is that action/motion? Now, I agree that a fake would preceed a try, so if a foul occured during a shot fake it would not be considered part of continuous motion. But, going back to the OP, if A1 ends the dribble on a fast drive near the FT line with both feet off the ground, the first step would be considered establishing the pivot foot, the second step would be lifting the pivot foot, and then the shot leaves the hand. Are you saying one of those actions, perhaps establishing the pivot foot, is not part of the shooting motion?

This discussion does seem to point out that many officials, coaches, and players are not aware that a try, and continuous motion, by rule, begins sooner than they think. This leads to many officials not awarding FT's on some plays where they should be awarded.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

I don't agree, but I respect it sir!

There's gotta be a reason you've had success in multiple State associations. Longevity is a real tale-tell.

I'm just trying to find my way

Let's not get too caught up in my success. I'm still doing a mostly JV schedule here. 2 years here, 2 years there hasn't helped, to be sure, but I'm not exactly busting down the doors to the state tournament yet.

Personally, this is an area where a lot of people differ I think.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I'm still curious as to where specifically you feel a try actually starts? You seem to be saying, even on a straight drive for a layup, that there is some action/motion that happens in between when the player ends the dribble and when the try/shot actually starts. What is that action/motion? Now, I agree that a fake would preceed a try, so if a foul occured during a shot fake it would not be considered part of continuous motion. But, going back to the OP, if A1 ends the dribble on a fast drive near the FT line with both feet off the ground, the first step would be considered establishing the pivot foot, the second step would be lifting the pivot foot, and then the shot leaves the hand. Are you saying one of those actions, perhaps establishing the pivot foot, is not part of the shooting motion?

My position is that there is nothing that a player can do with a foot alone which would constitute the beginning of a try. This foot movement would need to be accompanied by something which could be considered to be a part of the throwing motion.

4-11-1: .......foul.....during the interval which begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try........

4-11-2: he........may complete the usual foot or body movement........
These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started.....

[Kelvin green]

the rule states "begins when the habitual throwing movement starts"

On a drive where does the habitual throwing motion begin? On a drive the player is dribbling, he picks up the ball to go to the basket. A throwing motion to the basket starts when he picks up the ball. The player has two choices at that point pass or shoot.... If he doesnt pass then he was shooting.

On a set shot it is pretty obvious when the shot begins. If you have a quick player the dribbles and goes into an immediate jump shot (based on my experience) most of the time throwing motion is when he gathers the ball...

The casebook clearly states continuous motion ends if there is a dribble that starts...If the player catches the ball then the dribble ends....

Looking to casebook or rule book there is no further definition of habitual throwing motion. On a layup in my mind this is clear... I like what the NBA rule book states" The act of shooting starts when, in the official’s judgment, the player has started his shooting motion" .... Bottom line this is judgment when the shooting motion starts but too often high school officials but when the definition of continuous motion in NFHS and continuation of the NBA are nearly identical..we should be pretty consistent...

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Kelvin green

The player has two choices at that point pass or shoot....

Or he could stop and do neither.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by just another ref

My position is that there is nothing that a player can do with a foot alone which would constitute the beginning of a try. This foot movement would need to be accompanied by something which could be considered to be a part of the throwing motion.

4-11-1: .......foul.....during the interval which begins when the habitual throwing movement starts a try........

4-11-2: he........may complete the usual foot or body movement........
These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started.....

FWIW I believe that you are 100% correct. An official needs to see some movement to indicate that the player is attempting to score. It doesn't have to be much, but it does need to be more than simply ending a dribble or picking up the ball.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Or he could stop and do neither.

Really? Are you being realistic now? How many times have you seen a player dribbling on the move do this?

A player doing what the OP is doing is either going to shoot, pass, or travel. He is not going to stop on a dime. And if the player is fouled after stopping the dribble and before travelling then we as official need to judge whether he was shooting or passing. Way too often, IMO, HS officials want to make a point (often theactrically) of calling the foul "on the floor" or "before the shot" without any regard at all to continous motion or habitual throwing movement.

See the whole play.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Really? Are you being realistic now? How many times have you seen a player dribbling on the move do this?

You have never seen a player take the ball hard to the basket, then stop to let a defender fly by? Or you've never seen that same player stop, then have nowhere to go when the defender reads the play and doesn't fly by?
It happens. The majority of the time? no But it happens.

[BOFARMA]

A1 dribbles the length of the court & immediately upon gathering the ball at the FT line, B1 fouls A1 (tweet). A1 takes 2 steps [/COLOR][/B]& misses the shot.

I say A1 shoots 2 FTs my more veteran partners say “he wasn’t in the act” when the foul occurred.
Thoughts??
A1 takes 2 steps ???

See post #19

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BOFARMA

A1 takes 2 steps ???

As we all know, 2 steps has nothing to do with whether a player traveled. It's all on where the feet were when the ball was gathered.

In the OP, the point of stating "2 steps" was to put the shot into time perspective with regard to the foul.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

FWIW I believe that you are 100% correct. An official needs to see some movement to indicate that the player is attempting to score. It doesn't have to be much, but it does need to be more than simply ending a dribble or picking up the ball.

While I don't disagree, I think ending the dribble can be the starting point of a shot attempt more often than some officials allow.

Let's say in the OP, as A1 takes the allowed strides towards the basket after ending the dribble, gets fouled, fakes a pass to the wing, then releases the ball towards the basket - I would agree this would not be a shooting foul. The foul preceded a pass attempt, not a shot.

But, as an example, continuous motion also specifically mentions a pivot. So a player can get fouled with their back to the basket at the start of a pivot, finish the pivot, take the step towards the basket and release the ball, and this should be a shooting foul. I think there are a number of officials that would not call this a shooting foul because they would feel the pivot and/or the following step would be actions preceding the actual shot. There are some that feel a shot would only be the action of the arms going up. But the rule specifically says, "...and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball".

You're right in that a blanket statement of "ending a dribble is the start of a shot" would not be correct. But it is correct more times than a lot of officials allow. That's my point - there is more to a try, by rule, than simply moving the arms to bring the ball above the head to release it.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

You're right in that a blanket statement of "ending a dribble is the start of a shot" would not be correct. But it is correct more times than a lot of officials allow. That's my point - there is more to a try, by rule, than simply moving the arms to bring the ball above the head to release it.

Agreed.

There are way too many times where officials are in a rush to put the foul "on the floor". They don't watch the whole play or sometimes even take in to account common sense. Like when there is a 1-on-1 fast break and there is not another offensive player within 20-30 feet of the play.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

There are some that feel a shot would only be the action of the arms going up. But the rule specifically says, "...and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball".

But the very next sentence of the rule says: These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs......

A throwing motion would involve the arms going up, would it not?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

But the very next sentence of the rule says: These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs......

A throwing motion would involve the arms going up, would it not?

Does it say that?

What about an up-and-under move? If the foul occurs while A1 is bringing the ball down and around the defender, are you saying the "shot" only occurs while the ball is back on the way up?