Act of shooting

ROMANO · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 06, 2003, 04:17am

Nice situation that happend to me last night:
whilst in act of shoothing it was a rough physical contact between the shooter and the defensive player and the ball enters the basket.the lead official(me) calls a charging foul and therefore the basket shall not count but the trail official who also the refree ,calls a defensive foul and therefore the basket shall count.what should i do in this situation?jump ball?

RookieDude · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 06, 2003, 04:51am

As you are getting with your partner...you are thinking..."gosh, I sure wish we had gone over this in our pre-game."

We talk about this in our pregame. If a play is coming towards an official, he/she usually will have the call.
Sometimes this sort of thing happens, you don't like it, but it just does. I would have liked to seen the Trail official hold his signal, if he really thought he had to blow his whistle on this play.
If he is adamant that the call should be a "block" insead of a "charge"...then you both have to decide which way you are going to go. (The stronger official usually prevails here.)
No way go with a "jump ball" as you stated! Go with either a "block" or a "charge"...simple as that.

Next time remember to pregame this type of situation, so you won't look lost on the floor.

Dude

ROMANO · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 06, 2003, 05:14am

we did talk about situation like this in the pre-game but.....
you think that the "stronger" refree should take this call?
and why not a jump ball?like a doubel foul?

firedoc · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 06, 2003, 07:01am

RookieDude is correct. The officials must decide which is the correct call and go with it. The last thing that you should do is go with the AP arrow. In my pregames, I always say that in case of a double whistle we should both hold off indicating the actual foul...usually one of the two officials will then indicate that the other person should have the call. That way there is no conflict between the officials.

ChuckElias · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 06, 2003, 09:34am

Unless FIBA rules are different on this point, and it's very possible that they are, RookieDude and firedoc are not correct. In NF, NCAA, and NBA rules if two officials signal opposite fouls, one offensive and one defensive, then you penalize both and go to the arrow (or jump ball in NBA). In NCAA, if the offensive team retains possession as a result of the AP, then there is no reset of the shot clock. In the NBA, if the offensive team wins the jump ball, then the shot clock remains where it is or is reset to 14, whichever is greater.

The key here is whether both officials signaled. Once the conflicting signals are given, both fouls must be assessed.

If there is a specific FIBA rule that addresses this, then you may safely ignore this entire post, b/c I have no idea what FIBA rules are. Where the heck is Duane?!?!?!

Chuck

ChuckElias · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 06, 2003, 09:39am

For the Fed ruling, see casebook play 4.19.7C. I'm sorry, but I don't have my NCAA book closeby. Maybe Bob J knows the citation.

Chuck

ROMANO · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 06, 2003, 09:41am

you are right ChuckEilas

ChuckElias · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 06, 2003, 09:47am

So what did you end up doing, Romano? Score it and go to the jump ball?

chuck

ROMANO · #9 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 06, 2003, 10:04am

From the FIBA RULES BOOK:
art 45-double foul
DEFINITION: "A doubel foul is situation in which two opposing players commit contact foul against each other at approximately the same time."
can i see my situation as doubel foul?

ROMANO · #10 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 06, 2003, 10:18am

NO ChuckElias
in the end we decieded to call only offensive foul and he cancelled his call.but all night i was thinking about this situation...

[Edited by ROMANO on Jan 6th, 2003 at 10:16 AM]

rockyroad · #11 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 06, 2003, 10:20am

Quote:

Originally posted by ChuckElias
In NF, NCAA, and NBA rules if two officials signal opposite fouls, one offensive and one defensive, then you penalize both and go to the arrow (or jump ball in NBA). Chuck

Uhmmmm...careful here Chuck...in the NCAA, the men's side handles it the way you said...on the women's side, we have been specifically told NOT to call both fouls, but to get together, decide whose primary it was in, and that official takes the foul... very strong emphasis on this from both Weston and Jacobs at the meetings this past fall...

RookieDude · #12 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 06, 2003, 10:53am

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Quote:

... then you may safely ignore this entire post.

Chuck, I will ignore your post...I like your rule reference, but in pratice, I don't like the call.(Apparently I'm not alone...either do Weston or Jacobs)

You ask why? Simply put, when we get together to talk about our "simultaneous" calls, we find that one of us actually had the call before the other one.

It will be a quick conversation but, will include things such as:
<*> who is really adamant about this call
<*> who was the play coming to (who's primary)
<*> who was in the best position to get this call
<*> who is coming out to "sell" this call
<*> who's buying the refreshments after the game for not holding their signal

Dude

ChuckElias · #13 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 06, 2003, 10:58am

Quote:

Originally posted by rockyroad
Uhmmmm...careful here Chuck... very strong emphasis on this from both Weston and Jacobs at the meetings this past fall...

Sigh. My bad. I keep forgetting that the women's side arbitrarily decides which rules to ignore. I think that, in this case, the Weston/Jacobs/RookieDude interpretation may actually be better; but it's not the rule. If the rule gets changed, fine; but until it does, RookieDude, you better do it the right way in case you're observed. Just my opinion.

Chuck

ROMANO · #14 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 06, 2003, 11:14am

Anyway the basket shall not be awarded ,we all agree about that?

RookieDude · #15 (**permalink**) Mon Jan 06, 2003, 11:40am

Depends...if you have the "charge" no basket.
If you have the "block" basket good and one FT.
If you have "both" fouls, as Chuck pointed out, by rule you have double fouls...therefore the ball does not become dead...bucket is good...go to the arrow.

Dude

[Edited by RookieDude on Jan 6th, 2003 at 10:45 AM]