African American Officials in the NCAA Tourney

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I did not say we should do anything. We are not in the position to do anything.

True.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Wow, writing a letter is an "aggressive action." I hate to find out if someone actually talked to John directly.

Good grief, Jeff. Writing a letter is neither agressive nor what I was talking about.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Not necessarily. Then again none of us know the basis for people even raising the issue.

Agreed That's what we're asking. Is it an issue? How do we know?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Why is it not fair?

First of all the general population argument is silly. For one if the product on the court dominates the game, you are saying that those that come from similar background should not be given a chance.

Show me where I said that?

I think it's obvious that top level players are dominated by African Americans. Basketball officials, though, do not come solely from the top level of former players. Top level basketball officials often were no more than average high school players. The racial breakdown of average high school players is far less skewed towards African Americans than the rest of the population.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And Larry Rose is in a conference that I am sure that many white officials do not frequently attend his camp based on who the schools are. I am sure guys like Larry are seeing officials from all over the country or region that are just as good as others and likely is not seeing some level of fairness. Now he would know that much more than I would. I am not a supervisor of a D1 conference. And Larry Rose has been there and done that as an official.

I confess that before this, I didn't know who Larry Rose was. I'm not saying it's not an issue. I'm only saying that if we're going to discuss this (which is what people here are asking for), one of the questions is, "How do we know it's an issue?"

"Larry Rose says it is" isn't going to be enough for a lot of us.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

True.

Good grief, Jeff. Writing a letter is neither agressive nor what I was talking about.

Then what are you talking about?

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Agreed That's what we're asking. Is it an issue? How do we know?

I do not know, I am not there. I can assume, but it is not based on direct knowledge.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Show me where I said that?

I was not referring directly to you. Someone else made that point and you commented on the issue. I did not say the issue was directly from your words.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I think it's obvious that top level players are dominated by African Americans. Basketball officials, though, do not come solely from the top level of former players. Top level basketball officials often were no more than average high school players. The racial breakdown of average high school players is far less skewed towards African Americans than the rest of the population.

Of course. My only point is if there are opportunities at the top level, I would think that some of those individuals would rise in another arena. Similar to coaches, administrators or others that rose through the athletic arena.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I confess that before this, I didn't know who Larry Rose was. I'm not saying it's not an issue. I'm only saying that if we're going to discuss this (which is what people here are asking for), one of the questions is, "How do we know it's an issue?"

"Larry Rose says it is" isn't going to be enough for a lot of us.

A big part of this discussion is who is who is initiating this correspondence to Adams. I am only recognizing that the person that seems to have a concern is in a much more advantageous situation to know things none of us here would ever know, because we are not in his position.

This is why we cannot have these discussions because if you even mention any issue of race, people come running to defend things they know nothing about. I am not asking for you to accept what Rose is saying (and we did not hear him talk about this topic at all BTW), but I find it interesting that people defend the current system without knowing the parties involved. You can accept anything; I find it interesting that you are quick to defend too.

Peace

[Adam]

I think letters are generally okay. My impression is that more is being asked for. If the letter is to serve no other purpose than to make Adams aware of the perception others are getting, then great.

By aggressive action, I’m speaking specifically of calls to essentially have quotas where the race of the officials is largely predetermined.

I haven’t seen anyone suggest any official shouldn’t be given a chance. Maybe I missed it.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is why we cannot have these discussions because if you even mention any issue of race, people come running to defend things they know nothing about. I am not asking for you to accept what Rose is saying (and we did not hear him talk about this topic at all BTW), but I find it interesting that people defend the current system without knowing the parties involved. You can accept anything; I find it interesting that you are quick to defend too.

I'm not defending anything. I'm asking questions. If we're going to have an honest discussion about race issues, it's going to have to start with a bunch of questions.

I'll admit Rose's opinion carries some weight due to his position.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I think letters are generally okay. My impression is that more is being asked for. If the letter is to serve no other purpose than to make Adams aware of the perception others are getting, then great.

By aggressive action, I’m speaking specifically of calls to essentially have quotas where the race of the officials is largely predetermined.

Can you show the quote where anyone suggested a quota from the point of view that suggested there was a problem? I do not even think the OP even talked about a number. That number or suggestion of numbers were raised by those jumping to conclusions about the motives were absurd or unfounded.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I haven’t seen anyone suggest any official shouldn’t be given a chance. Maybe I missed it.

I would suggest that a lot of officials do not deserve a shot. But that is me.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm not defending anything. I'm asking questions. If we're going to have an honest discussion about race issues, it's going to have to start with a bunch of questions.

I'll admit Rose's opinion carries some weight due to his position.

Do a little research on Rose. He is a currently the assignor of a conference that has all Historically Black Colleges. He was a multiple time Final Four official that worked in conferences like the ACC and SEC. He told a great story once at a camp I attended where he ripped Billy Packer to his face (got a huge laugh). Larry Rose knows much more about this than most of us. I am sure he has officials come to his camp that are likely not being hired in other lower level conferences (rightly or wrongly, that is just the nature of mid-major camps). I am sure that Rose or anyone in his situation draws conclusions based on knowing the people involved and the system. I do not know if the claim is right, I just trust a person in his position much more than what I think. I have not done a study on the issue or know what goes on in other parts of the country. I have enough time trying to figure out who gets hired at lower level in the Midwest, not all over the country. And my opinion on these issues is really not a big factor. I do know that when I go to camps, it is amazing the amount of African-American officials I run into and their talent. Some are working at the D1 level, many are not. I have no idea why or who deserves outside of my amateur opinion.

Peace

[Jay R]

For what it's worth, I had the impression that there were fewer black officials in this year's tournament than in the past. Maybe it was because of that article that someone posted.

So I did a little research. As far as I could tell, lat year (2008),11 of the 96 officials were African American and this year (2009)12 of the 96 officials were African American.

Last year (2008), 8 of the 36 officials who worked regionals were African American and this year it was 5 out of 36.

The notable AA officials who were absent were Ed Hightower, Mike Nance, Patrick Evans, Sean Hull and Zelton Steed. Hull did not work the tournament at all. Neither did Steed who worked a Sweet Sixteen game last year. Zelton used to post here. Anyone been in contact with him?