African American Officials in the NCAA Tourney

[Jay R]

For what it's worth, I had the impression that there were fewer black officials in this year's tournament than in the past. Maybe it was because of that article that someone posted.

So I did a little research. As far as I could tell, lat year (2008),11 of the 96 officials were African American and this year (2009)12 of the 96 officials were African American.

Last year (2008), 8 of the 36 officials who worked regionals were African American and this year it was 5 out of 36.

The notable AA officials who were absent were Ed Hightower, Mike Nance, Patrick Evans, Sean Hull and Zelton Steed. Hull did not work the tournament at all. Neither did Steed who worked a Sweet Sixteen game last year. Zelton used to post here. Anyone been in contact with him?

[walter]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I did not say we should do anything. We are not in the position to do anything.



Wow, writing a letter is an "aggressive action." I hate to find out if someone actually talked to John directly.




Not necessarily. Then again none of us know the basis for people even raising the issue.



Why is it not fair?



First of all the general population argument is silly. For one if the product on the court dominates the game, you are saying that those that come from similar background should not be given a chance.

And Larry Rose is in a conference that I am sure that many white officials do not frequently attend his camp based on who the schools are. I am sure guys like Larry are seeing officials from all over the country or region that are just as good as others and likely is not seeing some level of fairness. Now he would know that much more than I would. I am not a supervisor of a D1 conference. And Larry Rose has been there and done that as an official.

Peace

Rut: I have been to his camp. The numbers were pretty equal as far as race is concerned (at least the year I went). I heard Larry say if you can ref, (paraphrasing here) demographics don't matter. He told everyone there he wants the best officials on the floor. I am white and a friend of mine got me into the camp. While I support your right to your opinion (I often agree with you), I do not believe that the predominent race of the players should determine the make-up of the crew at any level. If that is not what you are "saying", I apologize. I believe, like I believe you do, the best officials should be on the floor regardless of race, creed, etc. I am a realist. Racism still exists and anyone who thinks it doesn't isn;t living in the real world. However, gender, creed, sexual orientation, insert your own "ism" here, still exist as well. That being said, choosing a crew simply based upon race is wrong just as excluding an official based on race is wrong as well.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Welcome to my world most of the time. I do not have that choice you do.

Peace

And I wouldn't have passed up the choice, considering the partners I had those nights.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by walter

Rut: I have been to his camp. The numbers were pretty equal as far as race is concerned (at least the year I went). I heard Larry say if you can ref, (paraphrasing here) demographics don't matter. He told everyone there he wants the best officials on the floor. I am white and a friend of mine got me into the camp. While I support your right to your opinion (I often agree with you), I do not believe that the predominent race of the players should determine the make-up of the crew at any level.

If you believe that I said, meant or even suggest that a determining factor is only about the race of the person, then you have not ever read anything I have said. I said no such thing. But just like anything, people are chosen at those levels for all kinds of reasons that no one can control easily.

Originally Posted by walter

If that is not what you are "saying", I apologize. I believe, like I believe you do, the best officials should be on the floor regardless of race, creed, etc. I am a realist.

You should apologize.

Just kidding, you not have to apologize, you are just mistaken. And I do not believe that the best of the best of the best is always chosen or given opportunities. And if you think that everyone accepts that the best are there based on the issues of race, then you have not talked too many of them at that level. Because I have been fortunate to talk too many at that level, they feel there is a problem. Now I do not work there, I do not know other than some arbitrary numbers which often do not tell the entire story.

Originally Posted by walter

Racism still exists and anyone who thinks it doesn't isn;t living in the real world. However, gender, creed, sexual orientation, insert your own "ism" here, still exist as well. That being said, choosing a crew simply based upon race is wrong just as excluding an official based on race is wrong as well.

I will say this. It is a common opinion that many Black officials are not competing against everyone, they are competing against each other. The numbers issue in my opinion is not just about the lower levels, not just the D1 level. The gatekeepers are not necessarily giving opportunities at the lower levels, not just the D1 level. If you cannot get to the D1 level without working a lower level college, of course the numbers at the higher levels are going to be skewed. In my opinion, that is probably a bigger issue than what Rose or this OP is bringing up. I have seen a lot of people that cannot work a hard high school game, work a lower level college playoff. I am sure if numbers and issue, that would reflect at that level.

Peace

[DonInKansas]

I don't understand the argument of "there's a high percentage of AA players, so there should be more AA officials." Whats the percentage of AA officials in the pool of DI officials? That's what should matter.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If we want to go there, what percentage of the players is Black?

About 60, but it is completely irrelevant since officials are not selected from the teams playing. If they were, you might have a small point.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If this was only about percentages, why are white officials not only working filling 33% of the slots? You should have a good answer, since this is only about percentages that you brought up.

Peace

English please?

[walter]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you believe that I said, meant or even suggest that a determining factor is only about the race of the person, then you have not ever read anything I have said. I said no such thing. But just like anything, people are chosen at those levels for all kinds of reasons that no one can control easily.



You should apologize.

Just kidding, you not have to apologize, you are just mistaken. And I do not believe that the best of the best of the best is always chosen or given opportunities. And if you think that everyone accepts that the best are there based on the issues of race, then you have not talked too many of them at that level. Because I have been fortunate to talk too many at that level, they feel there is a problem. Now I do not work there, I do not know other than some arbitrary numbers which often do not tell the entire story.



I will say this. It is a common opinion that many Black officials are not competing against everyone, they are competing against each other. The numbers issue in my opinion is not just about the lower levels, not just the D1 level. The gatekeepers are not necessarily giving opportunities at the lower levels, not just the D1 level. If you cannot get to the D1 level without working a lower level college, of course the numbers at the higher levels are going to be skewed. In my opinion, that is probably a bigger issue than what Rose or this OP is bringing up. I have seen a lot of people that cannot work a hard high school game, work a lower level college playoff. I am sure if numbers and issue, that would reflect at that level.

Peace

I apologize ! I agree whole-heartedly with you that race should never be the sole determining factor. I also agree with your statement that there are people reffing at high levels that we have all seen struggle at much lower levels. Let's be honest, only the supervisors know what they are looking for and any number of factors go into that. I agree most with the statement I bolded (if I did it right ). As we know, the conference supervisors are the epitome of "the buck stops here" so they get final say in who gets a contract and who doesn't. As for the issue raised in the original post, the last thing I will say is none of us have seen the letter that was sent raising the question and none of us have seen the response, if any. Although I have learned a lot from this forum, a lot of supposition goes on without fact. We are not privy to all the facts on a lot of issues including this one. As for the make up of the crews, people at a lot higher levels are making those decisions for whatever the reason. That being said, I support anyone's right to question how those decisions are made.

As for me, race, creed, etc. should never be the sole determining factor in anything and I do not believe you have ever said it should.

[Adam]

I think letters are generally okay. My impression is that more is being asked for. If the letter is to serve no other purpose than to make Adams aware of the perception others are getting, then great.

By aggressive action, I’m speaking specifically of calls to essentially have quotas where the race of the officials is largely predetermined.

I haven’t seen anyone suggest any official shouldn’t be given a chance. Maybe I missed it.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is why we cannot have these discussions because if you even mention any issue of race, people come running to defend things they know nothing about. I am not asking for you to accept what Rose is saying (and we did not hear him talk about this topic at all BTW), but I find it interesting that people defend the current system without knowing the parties involved. You can accept anything; I find it interesting that you are quick to defend too.

I'm not defending anything. I'm asking questions. If we're going to have an honest discussion about race issues, it's going to have to start with a bunch of questions.

I'll admit Rose's opinion carries some weight due to his position.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by DonInKansas

I don't understand the argument of "there's a high percentage of AA players, so there should be more AA officials." Whats the percentage of AA officials in the pool of DI officials? That's what should matter.

Why should that matter? You think a certain percentage of each race should advance regardless of past performance?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You brought up the percentages, I did not do that. This was not and is not about percentages.

No, I didn't bring them up. The OP did.

No matter how much you try to sugar coat it, it is about numbers/percentages Read the OP....

Originally Posted by Cmoore

It was very interesting and noteworthy that the lack of a fair number of African American officials in the 2009 NCAA men's division I tourney prompted Larry Rose...

There was an obvious lack of an African American presence in the Sweet 16 for sure. As many African Americans that play basketball, there should be greater representation of African American officials...especially since there are a very high number of QUALIFIED African American officials, who simply have not received their chance yet.

Does the OP believe that there are also not a very high number of QUALIFIED non African Americans who have not received their chance yet?

Originally Posted by Cmoore

We'll see how much we (AA) stick together on this one...

The original poster's point, motive, and attidute is so morally and ethically wrong on so many levels.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Equality is about giving people an equal opportunity.

Agree, but that is not the topic of the orignal post....it was about numbers....even if the facts show the opposite of what he would like people to believe.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

What I do love, is the minute people here do not get an opportunity, it is all about politics. That is widely accepted here, but any mention of inequality that cannot be even mentioned. God forbid anyone even talks about that.

Peace

Exactly. You want equality, just not equal equality.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Exactly. You want equality, just not equal equality.

Yes Camron, whatever you say.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I think letters are generally okay. My impression is that more is being asked for. If the letter is to serve no other purpose than to make Adams aware of the perception others are getting, then great.

By aggressive action, I’m speaking specifically of calls to essentially have quotas where the race of the officials is largely predetermined.

Can you show the quote where anyone suggested a quota from the point of view that suggested there was a problem? I do not even think the OP even talked about a number. That number or suggestion of numbers were raised by those jumping to conclusions about the motives were absurd or unfounded.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I haven’t seen anyone suggest any official shouldn’t be given a chance. Maybe I missed it.

I would suggest that a lot of officials do not deserve a shot. But that is me.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm not defending anything. I'm asking questions. If we're going to have an honest discussion about race issues, it's going to have to start with a bunch of questions.

I'll admit Rose's opinion carries some weight due to his position.

Do a little research on Rose. He is a currently the assignor of a conference that has all Historically Black Colleges. He was a multiple time Final Four official that worked in conferences like the ACC and SEC. He told a great story once at a camp I attended where he ripped Billy Packer to his face (got a huge laugh). Larry Rose knows much more about this than most of us. I am sure he has officials come to his camp that are likely not being hired in other lower level conferences (rightly or wrongly, that is just the nature of mid-major camps). I am sure that Rose or anyone in his situation draws conclusions based on knowing the people involved and the system. I do not know if the claim is right, I just trust a person in his position much more than what I think. I have not done a study on the issue or know what goes on in other parts of the country. I have enough time trying to figure out who gets hired at lower level in the Midwest, not all over the country. And my opinion on these issues is really not a big factor. I do know that when I go to camps, it is amazing the amount of African-American officials I run into and their talent. Some are working at the D1 level, many are not. I have no idea why or who deserves outside of my amateur opinion.

Peace

[SWMOzebra]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I should have put the over-under when someone was going to reference Martin Luther King Jr.

My use of Dr. King's powerful words was meant to show my belief that African-American officials should be judged by their skills and not held back because of the color of their skin or any other reason.

It was not my intention to offend you or anyone else, Rut. I think any rational person recognizes that the dream has not yet been achieved.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SWMOzebra

My use of Dr. King's powerful words was meant to show my belief that African-American officials should be judged by their skills and not held back because of the color of their skin or any other reason.

It was not my intention to offend you or anyone else, Rut. I think any rational person recognizes that the dream has not yet been achieved.

This must be the Twilight Zone.

It was a joke because anytime we get in these discussions, someone quotes MLK. IT WAS A JOKE!!!!

Peace

[DonInKansas]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Why should that matter? You think a certain percentage of each race should advance regardless of past performance?

I misapplied what I was saying I suppose. I wasn't saying any of it should matter. The point I was trying to make is that if somebody's going to try and make the argument, it shouldn't be based on the players on the floor, since that's not the pool that's being drawn from.