African American Officials in the NCAA Tourney

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Ok, let's look at those numbers and see how unfair they really are.

What percentage of the FF officials were Black? 33%.

Now, what percentage of the US is Black? 13%.
Now, what percentage of the US is Hispanic? 15%.
Now, what percentage of the US is Asian? 5%.

Looks to me like Blacks are really getting shafted on this one!

If we want to go there, what percentage of the players is Black?

If this was only about percentages, why are white officials not only working filling 33% of the slots? You should have a good answer, since this is only about percentages that you brought up.

Peace

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If we want to go there, what percentage of the players is Black?

Holy cow, you're right!!! Blacks are WAYYYYY over-represented as players!! We should be giving more white players spots on these teams so that blacks AND whites are fairly represented.

That's the point you were trying to make, right?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If we want to go there, what percentage of the players is Black?

So we should base the number of officials of each rase on the break down of players who make the teams? This would only make sense if one of the requirements to be an official was to have played at the level you officiate.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If this was only about percentages, why are white officials not only working filling 33% of the slots? You should have a good answer, since this is only about percentages that you brought up.

Camron's point is that it's hard to find a disparity that justifies aggressive action.

And to answer Tomegun's point about there being plenty of African American (and other minorities) officials who are qualified and not working the Tourney;
I think we'd all concede that.

I would question, however, whether the breakdown of qualified officials who aren't getting their break is skewed towards minorities. IOW, how many quality white officials are not getting their break either.

Look, I'll admit I don't know the numbers here. It may very well be that there's a ceiling for minority officials. It may be that there is not. I don't know of any way to determine this except for statistics and percentages; but what do you compare it to?

If you compare it to the players, then the numbers are obviously inadequate; but I don't think that's fair.

If you compare it to the general population, then the numbers seem to (at the top anyway) actually favor minorities.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So we should base the number of officials of each rase on the break down of players who make the teams? This would only make sense if one of the requirements to be an official was to have played at the level you officiate.

I did not say we should do anything. We are not in the position to do anything.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Camron's point is that it's hard to find a disparity that justifies aggressive action.

Wow, writing a letter is an "aggressive action." I hate to find out if someone actually talked to John directly.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And to answer Tomegun's point about there being plenty of African American (and other minorities) officials who are qualified and not working the Tourney;
I think we'd all concede that.

I would question, however, whether the breakdown of qualified officials who aren't getting their break is skewed towards minorities. IOW, how many quality white officials are not getting their break either.

Not necessarily. Then again none of us know the basis for people even raising the issue.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Look, I'll admit I don't know the numbers here. It may very well be that there's a ceiling for minority officials. It may be that there is not. I don't know of any way to determine this except for statistics and percentages; but what do you compare it to?

If you compare it to the players, then the numbers are obviously inadequate; but I don't think that's fair.

Why is it not fair?

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If you compare it to the general population, then the numbers seem to (at the top anyway) actually favor minorities.

First of all the general population argument is silly. For one if the product on the court dominates the game, you are saying that those that come from similar background should not be given a chance.

And Larry Rose is in a conference that I am sure that many white officials do not frequently attend his camp based on who the schools are. I am sure guys like Larry are seeing officials from all over the country or region that are just as good as others and likely is not seeing some level of fairness. Now he would know that much more than I would. I am not a supervisor of a D1 conference. And Larry Rose has been there and done that as an official.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I did not say we should do anything. We are not in the position to do anything.

True.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Wow, writing a letter is an "aggressive action." I hate to find out if someone actually talked to John directly.

Good grief, Jeff. Writing a letter is neither agressive nor what I was talking about.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Not necessarily. Then again none of us know the basis for people even raising the issue.

Agreed That's what we're asking. Is it an issue? How do we know?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Why is it not fair?

First of all the general population argument is silly. For one if the product on the court dominates the game, you are saying that those that come from similar background should not be given a chance.

Show me where I said that?

I think it's obvious that top level players are dominated by African Americans. Basketball officials, though, do not come solely from the top level of former players. Top level basketball officials often were no more than average high school players. The racial breakdown of average high school players is far less skewed towards African Americans than the rest of the population.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And Larry Rose is in a conference that I am sure that many white officials do not frequently attend his camp based on who the schools are. I am sure guys like Larry are seeing officials from all over the country or region that are just as good as others and likely is not seeing some level of fairness. Now he would know that much more than I would. I am not a supervisor of a D1 conference. And Larry Rose has been there and done that as an official.

I confess that before this, I didn't know who Larry Rose was. I'm not saying it's not an issue. I'm only saying that if we're going to discuss this (which is what people here are asking for), one of the questions is, "How do we know it's an issue?"

"Larry Rose says it is" isn't going to be enough for a lot of us.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

True.

Good grief, Jeff. Writing a letter is neither agressive nor what I was talking about.

Then what are you talking about?

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Agreed That's what we're asking. Is it an issue? How do we know?

I do not know, I am not there. I can assume, but it is not based on direct knowledge.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Show me where I said that?

I was not referring directly to you. Someone else made that point and you commented on the issue. I did not say the issue was directly from your words.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I think it's obvious that top level players are dominated by African Americans. Basketball officials, though, do not come solely from the top level of former players. Top level basketball officials often were no more than average high school players. The racial breakdown of average high school players is far less skewed towards African Americans than the rest of the population.

Of course. My only point is if there are opportunities at the top level, I would think that some of those individuals would rise in another arena. Similar to coaches, administrators or others that rose through the athletic arena.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I confess that before this, I didn't know who Larry Rose was. I'm not saying it's not an issue. I'm only saying that if we're going to discuss this (which is what people here are asking for), one of the questions is, "How do we know it's an issue?"

"Larry Rose says it is" isn't going to be enough for a lot of us.

A big part of this discussion is who is who is initiating this correspondence to Adams. I am only recognizing that the person that seems to have a concern is in a much more advantageous situation to know things none of us here would ever know, because we are not in his position.

This is why we cannot have these discussions because if you even mention any issue of race, people come running to defend things they know nothing about. I am not asking for you to accept what Rose is saying (and we did not hear him talk about this topic at all BTW), but I find it interesting that people defend the current system without knowing the parties involved. You can accept anything; I find it interesting that you are quick to defend too.

Peace

[Adam]

I think letters are generally okay. My impression is that more is being asked for. If the letter is to serve no other purpose than to make Adams aware of the perception others are getting, then great.

By aggressive action, I’m speaking specifically of calls to essentially have quotas where the race of the officials is largely predetermined.

I haven’t seen anyone suggest any official shouldn’t be given a chance. Maybe I missed it.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

This is why we cannot have these discussions because if you even mention any issue of race, people come running to defend things they know nothing about. I am not asking for you to accept what Rose is saying (and we did not hear him talk about this topic at all BTW), but I find it interesting that people defend the current system without knowing the parties involved. You can accept anything; I find it interesting that you are quick to defend too.

I'm not defending anything. I'm asking questions. If we're going to have an honest discussion about race issues, it's going to have to start with a bunch of questions.

I'll admit Rose's opinion carries some weight due to his position.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I think letters are generally okay. My impression is that more is being asked for. If the letter is to serve no other purpose than to make Adams aware of the perception others are getting, then great.

By aggressive action, I’m speaking specifically of calls to essentially have quotas where the race of the officials is largely predetermined.

Can you show the quote where anyone suggested a quota from the point of view that suggested there was a problem? I do not even think the OP even talked about a number. That number or suggestion of numbers were raised by those jumping to conclusions about the motives were absurd or unfounded.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I haven’t seen anyone suggest any official shouldn’t be given a chance. Maybe I missed it.

I would suggest that a lot of officials do not deserve a shot. But that is me.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I'm not defending anything. I'm asking questions. If we're going to have an honest discussion about race issues, it's going to have to start with a bunch of questions.

I'll admit Rose's opinion carries some weight due to his position.

Do a little research on Rose. He is a currently the assignor of a conference that has all Historically Black Colleges. He was a multiple time Final Four official that worked in conferences like the ACC and SEC. He told a great story once at a camp I attended where he ripped Billy Packer to his face (got a huge laugh). Larry Rose knows much more about this than most of us. I am sure he has officials come to his camp that are likely not being hired in other lower level conferences (rightly or wrongly, that is just the nature of mid-major camps). I am sure that Rose or anyone in his situation draws conclusions based on knowing the people involved and the system. I do not know if the claim is right, I just trust a person in his position much more than what I think. I have not done a study on the issue or know what goes on in other parts of the country. I have enough time trying to figure out who gets hired at lower level in the Midwest, not all over the country. And my opinion on these issues is really not a big factor. I do know that when I go to camps, it is amazing the amount of African-American officials I run into and their talent. Some are working at the D1 level, many are not. I have no idea why or who deserves outside of my amateur opinion.

Peace

[Jay R]

For what it's worth, I had the impression that there were fewer black officials in this year's tournament than in the past. Maybe it was because of that article that someone posted.

So I did a little research. As far as I could tell, lat year (2008),11 of the 96 officials were African American and this year (2009)12 of the 96 officials were African American.

Last year (2008), 8 of the 36 officials who worked regionals were African American and this year it was 5 out of 36.

The notable AA officials who were absent were Ed Hightower, Mike Nance, Patrick Evans, Sean Hull and Zelton Steed. Hull did not work the tournament at all. Neither did Steed who worked a Sweet Sixteen game last year. Zelton used to post here. Anyone been in contact with him?

[walter]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I did not say we should do anything. We are not in the position to do anything.



Wow, writing a letter is an "aggressive action." I hate to find out if someone actually talked to John directly.




Not necessarily. Then again none of us know the basis for people even raising the issue.



Why is it not fair?



First of all the general population argument is silly. For one if the product on the court dominates the game, you are saying that those that come from similar background should not be given a chance.

And Larry Rose is in a conference that I am sure that many white officials do not frequently attend his camp based on who the schools are. I am sure guys like Larry are seeing officials from all over the country or region that are just as good as others and likely is not seeing some level of fairness. Now he would know that much more than I would. I am not a supervisor of a D1 conference. And Larry Rose has been there and done that as an official.

Peace

Rut: I have been to his camp. The numbers were pretty equal as far as race is concerned (at least the year I went). I heard Larry say if you can ref, (paraphrasing here) demographics don't matter. He told everyone there he wants the best officials on the floor. I am white and a friend of mine got me into the camp. While I support your right to your opinion (I often agree with you), I do not believe that the predominent race of the players should determine the make-up of the crew at any level. If that is not what you are "saying", I apologize. I believe, like I believe you do, the best officials should be on the floor regardless of race, creed, etc. I am a realist. Racism still exists and anyone who thinks it doesn't isn;t living in the real world. However, gender, creed, sexual orientation, insert your own "ism" here, still exist as well. That being said, choosing a crew simply based upon race is wrong just as excluding an official based on race is wrong as well.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by walter

Rut: I have been to his camp. The numbers were pretty equal as far as race is concerned (at least the year I went). I heard Larry say if you can ref, (paraphrasing here) demographics don't matter. He told everyone there he wants the best officials on the floor. I am white and a friend of mine got me into the camp. While I support your right to your opinion (I often agree with you), I do not believe that the predominent race of the players should determine the make-up of the crew at any level.

If you believe that I said, meant or even suggest that a determining factor is only about the race of the person, then you have not ever read anything I have said. I said no such thing. But just like anything, people are chosen at those levels for all kinds of reasons that no one can control easily.

Originally Posted by walter

If that is not what you are "saying", I apologize. I believe, like I believe you do, the best officials should be on the floor regardless of race, creed, etc. I am a realist.

You should apologize.

Just kidding, you not have to apologize, you are just mistaken. And I do not believe that the best of the best of the best is always chosen or given opportunities. And if you think that everyone accepts that the best are there based on the issues of race, then you have not talked too many of them at that level. Because I have been fortunate to talk too many at that level, they feel there is a problem. Now I do not work there, I do not know other than some arbitrary numbers which often do not tell the entire story.

Originally Posted by walter

Racism still exists and anyone who thinks it doesn't isn;t living in the real world. However, gender, creed, sexual orientation, insert your own "ism" here, still exist as well. That being said, choosing a crew simply based upon race is wrong just as excluding an official based on race is wrong as well.

I will say this. It is a common opinion that many Black officials are not competing against everyone, they are competing against each other. The numbers issue in my opinion is not just about the lower levels, not just the D1 level. The gatekeepers are not necessarily giving opportunities at the lower levels, not just the D1 level. If you cannot get to the D1 level without working a lower level college, of course the numbers at the higher levels are going to be skewed. In my opinion, that is probably a bigger issue than what Rose or this OP is bringing up. I have seen a lot of people that cannot work a hard high school game, work a lower level college playoff. I am sure if numbers and issue, that would reflect at that level.

Peace

[DonInKansas]

I don't understand the argument of "there's a high percentage of AA players, so there should be more AA officials." Whats the percentage of AA officials in the pool of DI officials? That's what should matter.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by DonInKansas

I don't understand the argument of "there's a high percentage of AA players, so there should be more AA officials." Whats the percentage of AA officials in the pool of DI officials? That's what should matter.

Why should that matter? You think a certain percentage of each race should advance regardless of past performance?

[walter]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If you believe that I said, meant or even suggest that a determining factor is only about the race of the person, then you have not ever read anything I have said. I said no such thing. But just like anything, people are chosen at those levels for all kinds of reasons that no one can control easily.



You should apologize.

Just kidding, you not have to apologize, you are just mistaken. And I do not believe that the best of the best of the best is always chosen or given opportunities. And if you think that everyone accepts that the best are there based on the issues of race, then you have not talked too many of them at that level. Because I have been fortunate to talk too many at that level, they feel there is a problem. Now I do not work there, I do not know other than some arbitrary numbers which often do not tell the entire story.



I will say this. It is a common opinion that many Black officials are not competing against everyone, they are competing against each other. The numbers issue in my opinion is not just about the lower levels, not just the D1 level. The gatekeepers are not necessarily giving opportunities at the lower levels, not just the D1 level. If you cannot get to the D1 level without working a lower level college, of course the numbers at the higher levels are going to be skewed. In my opinion, that is probably a bigger issue than what Rose or this OP is bringing up. I have seen a lot of people that cannot work a hard high school game, work a lower level college playoff. I am sure if numbers and issue, that would reflect at that level.

Peace

I apologize ! I agree whole-heartedly with you that race should never be the sole determining factor. I also agree with your statement that there are people reffing at high levels that we have all seen struggle at much lower levels. Let's be honest, only the supervisors know what they are looking for and any number of factors go into that. I agree most with the statement I bolded (if I did it right ). As we know, the conference supervisors are the epitome of "the buck stops here" so they get final say in who gets a contract and who doesn't. As for the issue raised in the original post, the last thing I will say is none of us have seen the letter that was sent raising the question and none of us have seen the response, if any. Although I have learned a lot from this forum, a lot of supposition goes on without fact. We are not privy to all the facts on a lot of issues including this one. As for the make up of the crews, people at a lot higher levels are making those decisions for whatever the reason. That being said, I support anyone's right to question how those decisions are made.

As for me, race, creed, etc. should never be the sole determining factor in anything and I do not believe you have ever said it should.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by walter

...As for the issue raised in the original post, the last thing I will say is none of us have seen the letter that was sent raising the question and none of us have seen the response, if any...

I wouldn't assume that.