African American Officials in the NCAA Tourney

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

No, you just cannot have this discussion here. Serious conversations that deal with this issue are not accepted. I should have put the over-under when someone was going to reference Martin Luther King Jr.

Peace

Sure they are....but this one is simply ridiculous. The real numbers, based on the whole population, not just a carefully selected slice that skew the appearance, just don't support the premise this thread suggests.

[Raymond]

It would not surprise me if Mr. Adams formally addressed this issue via a memo or bulletin. He does not strike me as someone to shy away from any issue.

Originally Posted by ronald

Life ain't fair. Get over it. Take up your cross.

That always tends to be a very easy statement to make when coming from beneficiaries who reap benefits/perks as a birth right, while others have to fight for them.

Most people don’t understand things unless it affects them directly. Walk with me…

Let’s say for instance that an Underworld Caucasian Group were selling other Caucasians to a “new found land” on Mars.
During their stay the use of the English language, common names & praying to God/Jesus was not tolerated. They were even taught to hate each other, blonde vs. brunette, blue eyes vs. green eyes, old vs. young, etc. The men were made an example of for all women & children to see. After hundreds of years of this treatment, all of a sudden they were free & able to live amongst their former master. During the course of trying to live the same type of lifestyle as their ex-masters, opportunities (work, school, homes, etc) just didn’t come that easy for them as they were still a hated people. When they spoke about unequal opportunities

Originally Posted by ronald

Life ain't fair. Get over it. Take up your cross.

would often be the response.

Unless you or your family has experienced this scenario, you probably have no idea. Get it?

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

The Final Four is 3 games. It is pretty clear that black referees have had a fair share of assignments at this level for the past 10 years.

Even though the letter specifically addressed the Sweet Sixteen, we will still go with your numbers:

3 games
9 slots (1 Black per game)
1/3

Now where have I heard this 1/3 reasoning before? It wasn’t too fair back then either.

Oh that’s right, life ain’t fair (for some of us) get over it & do the best ya can.

[Juulie Downs]

...and just to throw a little bit of gas on the fire, I'll note that the entire thread up to this point only references African-Americans in the men's tournament, and doesn't deal with the issue as it relates to the women's side, where the number of African-Americans is about comparable.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

...and just to throw a little bit of gas on the fire, I'll note that the entire thread up to this point only references African-Americans in the men's tournament, and doesn't deal with the issue as it relates to the women's side, where the number of African-Americans is about comparable.

That's because the issue was taken up directly with Mr. Adams concerning the NCAA-M's tournament.

Just out of curiosity has there ever been any controversies concerning the number of men or women working the NCAA-W's tournament?

[tomegun]

First off, David Libbey isn't black so he shouldn't be on the list.

Second, I have seen this in the west, east and south. If you think the black officials on TV are the only black officials good enough then you (in general terms) haven't seen enough officials. I also know of Asian and Hispanic officials who can flat out officiate.

It is ridiculous to think that officiating is somehow shielded from the rest of society and bias due to race doesn't occur. It is also ridiculous to bring up reverse discrimination or to even think or affirmative action. If something needs to be reversed or action taken we have a problem don't we?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Even though the letter specifically addressed the Sweet Sixteen, we will still go with your numbers:

3 games
9 slots (1 Black per game)
1/3

Now where have I heard this 1/3 reasoning before? It wasn’t too fair back then either.

Ok, let's look at those numbers and see how unfair they really are.

What percentage of the FF officials were Black? 33%.

Now, what percentage of the US is Black? 13%.
Now, what percentage of the US is Hispanic? 15%.
Now, what percentage of the US is Asian? 5%.

Looks to me like Blacks are really getting shafted on this one!

If equality were really the goal to be determined by the numbers, two of the Black officials should yield their spots to a Hispanic or Asian.

There are surely individual cases of discrimination but if there are any more than 13% of the nationwide tournament officials that are Black, there is NO basis of any argument that there is a pattern of racial discrimination unless someone wishes to make the claim that Blacks are better officials because they're Black and that they should be overrepresented because of that.

There are plenty of problem areas where inequities are real and need attention. This is not one of them.

It is efforts like this that detract from the fights against true discrimination problems.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Ok, let's look at those numbers and see how unfair they really are.

What percentage of the FF officials were Black? 33%.

Now, what percentage of the US is Black? 13%.
Now, what percentage of the US is Hispanic? 15%.
Now, what percentage of the US is Asian? 5%.

Looks to me like Blacks are really getting shafted on this one!

If we want to go there, what percentage of the players is Black?

If this was only about percentages, why are white officials not only working filling 33% of the slots? You should have a good answer, since this is only about percentages that you brought up.

Peace

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If we want to go there, what percentage of the players is Black?

Holy cow, you're right!!! Blacks are WAYYYYY over-represented as players!! We should be giving more white players spots on these teams so that blacks AND whites are fairly represented.

That's the point you were trying to make, right?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If we want to go there, what percentage of the players is Black?

So we should base the number of officials of each rase on the break down of players who make the teams? This would only make sense if one of the requirements to be an official was to have played at the level you officiate.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If this was only about percentages, why are white officials not only working filling 33% of the slots? You should have a good answer, since this is only about percentages that you brought up.

Camron's point is that it's hard to find a disparity that justifies aggressive action.

And to answer Tomegun's point about there being plenty of African American (and other minorities) officials who are qualified and not working the Tourney;
I think we'd all concede that.

I would question, however, whether the breakdown of qualified officials who aren't getting their break is skewed towards minorities. IOW, how many quality white officials are not getting their break either.

Look, I'll admit I don't know the numbers here. It may very well be that there's a ceiling for minority officials. It may be that there is not. I don't know of any way to determine this except for statistics and percentages; but what do you compare it to?

If you compare it to the players, then the numbers are obviously inadequate; but I don't think that's fair.

If you compare it to the general population, then the numbers seem to (at the top anyway) actually favor minorities.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So we should base the number of officials of each rase on the break down of players who make the teams? This would only make sense if one of the requirements to be an official was to have played at the level you officiate.

I did not say we should do anything. We are not in the position to do anything.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Camron's point is that it's hard to find a disparity that justifies aggressive action.

Wow, writing a letter is an "aggressive action." I hate to find out if someone actually talked to John directly.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

And to answer Tomegun's point about there being plenty of African American (and other minorities) officials who are qualified and not working the Tourney;
I think we'd all concede that.

I would question, however, whether the breakdown of qualified officials who aren't getting their break is skewed towards minorities. IOW, how many quality white officials are not getting their break either.

Not necessarily. Then again none of us know the basis for people even raising the issue.

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Look, I'll admit I don't know the numbers here. It may very well be that there's a ceiling for minority officials. It may be that there is not. I don't know of any way to determine this except for statistics and percentages; but what do you compare it to?

If you compare it to the players, then the numbers are obviously inadequate; but I don't think that's fair.

Why is it not fair?

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If you compare it to the general population, then the numbers seem to (at the top anyway) actually favor minorities.

First of all the general population argument is silly. For one if the product on the court dominates the game, you are saying that those that come from similar background should not be given a chance.

And Larry Rose is in a conference that I am sure that many white officials do not frequently attend his camp based on who the schools are. I am sure guys like Larry are seeing officials from all over the country or region that are just as good as others and likely is not seeing some level of fairness. Now he would know that much more than I would. I am not a supervisor of a D1 conference. And Larry Rose has been there and done that as an official.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I did not say we should do anything. We are not in the position to do anything.

True.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Wow, writing a letter is an "aggressive action." I hate to find out if someone actually talked to John directly.

Good grief, Jeff. Writing a letter is neither agressive nor what I was talking about.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Not necessarily. Then again none of us know the basis for people even raising the issue.

Agreed That's what we're asking. Is it an issue? How do we know?

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Why is it not fair?

First of all the general population argument is silly. For one if the product on the court dominates the game, you are saying that those that come from similar background should not be given a chance.

Show me where I said that?

I think it's obvious that top level players are dominated by African Americans. Basketball officials, though, do not come solely from the top level of former players. Top level basketball officials often were no more than average high school players. The racial breakdown of average high school players is far less skewed towards African Americans than the rest of the population.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

And Larry Rose is in a conference that I am sure that many white officials do not frequently attend his camp based on who the schools are. I am sure guys like Larry are seeing officials from all over the country or region that are just as good as others and likely is not seeing some level of fairness. Now he would know that much more than I would. I am not a supervisor of a D1 conference. And Larry Rose has been there and done that as an official.

I confess that before this, I didn't know who Larry Rose was. I'm not saying it's not an issue. I'm only saying that if we're going to discuss this (which is what people here are asking for), one of the questions is, "How do we know it's an issue?"

"Larry Rose says it is" isn't going to be enough for a lot of us.

[walter]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I did not say we should do anything. We are not in the position to do anything.



Wow, writing a letter is an "aggressive action." I hate to find out if someone actually talked to John directly.




Not necessarily. Then again none of us know the basis for people even raising the issue.



Why is it not fair?



First of all the general population argument is silly. For one if the product on the court dominates the game, you are saying that those that come from similar background should not be given a chance.

And Larry Rose is in a conference that I am sure that many white officials do not frequently attend his camp based on who the schools are. I am sure guys like Larry are seeing officials from all over the country or region that are just as good as others and likely is not seeing some level of fairness. Now he would know that much more than I would. I am not a supervisor of a D1 conference. And Larry Rose has been there and done that as an official.

Peace

Rut: I have been to his camp. The numbers were pretty equal as far as race is concerned (at least the year I went). I heard Larry say if you can ref, (paraphrasing here) demographics don't matter. He told everyone there he wants the best officials on the floor. I am white and a friend of mine got me into the camp. While I support your right to your opinion (I often agree with you), I do not believe that the predominent race of the players should determine the make-up of the crew at any level. If that is not what you are "saying", I apologize. I believe, like I believe you do, the best officials should be on the floor regardless of race, creed, etc. I am a realist. Racism still exists and anyone who thinks it doesn't isn;t living in the real world. However, gender, creed, sexual orientation, insert your own "ism" here, still exist as well. That being said, choosing a crew simply based upon race is wrong just as excluding an official based on race is wrong as well.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If we want to go there, what percentage of the players is Black?

About 60, but it is completely irrelevant since officials are not selected from the teams playing. If they were, you might have a small point.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If this was only about percentages, why are white officials not only working filling 33% of the slots? You should have a good answer, since this is only about percentages that you brought up.

Peace

English please?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Unless you or your family has experienced this scenario, you probably have no idea. Get it?

There are plenty of us on the paler side of the equation who would love to have an honest discussion on this issue. I know you don't mean it this way, but sometimes comments like this can lead us to think we're supposed to just sit and listen. That's not a race discussion, it's a lecture.

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Even though the letter specifically addressed the Sweet Sixteen, we will still go with your numbers:

3 games
9 slots (1 Black per game)
1/3

Now where have I heard this 1/3 reasoning before? It wasn’t too fair back then either.

Just for some historical perspective on this.

First of all, it was 3/5ths, not 1/3rd.

Second of all, it was, believe it or not, beneficial to the African Americans at the time. Southern leaders wanted to have the benefits of counting their slaves for census purposes without having to give them the right to vote. Northerners felt that was unfair (there's that stinking word again), since it would essentially increase the value of a southerner's vote for president and the House of Representatives.

To have granted full credit for the census would have tipped the balance of power towards the slave states and the abominable practice would have lasted longer. While it sounds disgusting to all of us to think of any person as having only 3/5 of the value of his neighbor, we should keep in mind the practical effects of this particular clause.