African American Officials in the NCAA Tourney

[Cmoore]

So, I guess I was the ONLY person who noted this issue? No one on here commented on the FACT that LARRY ROSE initiated the letter to ADAMS. Obviously HE felt it was an important issue and one that MANY people discuss in closed circles. How come no one has commented on that? I am sorry that my post has struck many of you in the wrong way and caused you to attack me. I will offer no further comments or threads regarding this issue.

Out...

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Cmoore

So, I guess I was the ONLY person who noted this issue? No one on here commented on the FACT that LARRY ROSE initiated the letter to ADAMS. Obviously HE felt it was an important issue and one that MANY people discuss in closed circles. How come no one has commented on that? I am sorry that my post has struck many of you in the wrong way and caused you to attack me. I will offer no further comments or threads regarding this issue.

Out...

No, you just cannot have this discussion here. Serious conversations that deal with this issue are not accepted. I should have put the over-under when someone was going to reference Martin Luther King Jr.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

No, you just cannot have this discussion here. Serious conversations that deal with this issue are not accepted. I should have put the over-under when someone was going to reference Martin Luther King Jr.

Peace

Sure they are....but this one is simply ridiculous. The real numbers, based on the whole population, not just a carefully selected slice that skew the appearance, just don't support the premise this thread suggests.

[Raymond]

It would not surprise me if Mr. Adams formally addressed this issue via a memo or bulletin. He does not strike me as someone to shy away from any issue.

Originally Posted by ronald

Life ain't fair. Get over it. Take up your cross.

That always tends to be a very easy statement to make when coming from beneficiaries who reap benefits/perks as a birth right, while others have to fight for them.

Most people don’t understand things unless it affects them directly. Walk with me…

Let’s say for instance that an Underworld Caucasian Group were selling other Caucasians to a “new found land” on Mars.
During their stay the use of the English language, common names & praying to God/Jesus was not tolerated. They were even taught to hate each other, blonde vs. brunette, blue eyes vs. green eyes, old vs. young, etc. The men were made an example of for all women & children to see. After hundreds of years of this treatment, all of a sudden they were free & able to live amongst their former master. During the course of trying to live the same type of lifestyle as their ex-masters, opportunities (work, school, homes, etc) just didn’t come that easy for them as they were still a hated people. When they spoke about unequal opportunities

Originally Posted by ronald

Life ain't fair. Get over it. Take up your cross.

would often be the response.

Unless you or your family has experienced this scenario, you probably have no idea. Get it?

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

The Final Four is 3 games. It is pretty clear that black referees have had a fair share of assignments at this level for the past 10 years.

Even though the letter specifically addressed the Sweet Sixteen, we will still go with your numbers:

3 games
9 slots (1 Black per game)
1/3

Now where have I heard this 1/3 reasoning before? It wasn’t too fair back then either.

Oh that’s right, life ain’t fair (for some of us) get over it & do the best ya can.

[Juulie Downs]

...and just to throw a little bit of gas on the fire, I'll note that the entire thread up to this point only references African-Americans in the men's tournament, and doesn't deal with the issue as it relates to the women's side, where the number of African-Americans is about comparable.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

...and just to throw a little bit of gas on the fire, I'll note that the entire thread up to this point only references African-Americans in the men's tournament, and doesn't deal with the issue as it relates to the women's side, where the number of African-Americans is about comparable.

That's because the issue was taken up directly with Mr. Adams concerning the NCAA-M's tournament.

Just out of curiosity has there ever been any controversies concerning the number of men or women working the NCAA-W's tournament?

[tomegun]

First off, David Libbey isn't black so he shouldn't be on the list.

Second, I have seen this in the west, east and south. If you think the black officials on TV are the only black officials good enough then you (in general terms) haven't seen enough officials. I also know of Asian and Hispanic officials who can flat out officiate.

It is ridiculous to think that officiating is somehow shielded from the rest of society and bias due to race doesn't occur. It is also ridiculous to bring up reverse discrimination or to even think or affirmative action. If something needs to be reversed or action taken we have a problem don't we?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Even though the letter specifically addressed the Sweet Sixteen, we will still go with your numbers:

3 games
9 slots (1 Black per game)
1/3

Now where have I heard this 1/3 reasoning before? It wasn’t too fair back then either.

Ok, let's look at those numbers and see how unfair they really are.

What percentage of the FF officials were Black? 33%.

Now, what percentage of the US is Black? 13%.
Now, what percentage of the US is Hispanic? 15%.
Now, what percentage of the US is Asian? 5%.

Looks to me like Blacks are really getting shafted on this one!

If equality were really the goal to be determined by the numbers, two of the Black officials should yield their spots to a Hispanic or Asian.

There are surely individual cases of discrimination but if there are any more than 13% of the nationwide tournament officials that are Black, there is NO basis of any argument that there is a pattern of racial discrimination unless someone wishes to make the claim that Blacks are better officials because they're Black and that they should be overrepresented because of that.

There are plenty of problem areas where inequities are real and need attention. This is not one of them.

It is efforts like this that detract from the fights against true discrimination problems.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Ok, let's look at those numbers and see how unfair they really are.

What percentage of the FF officials were Black? 33%.

Now, what percentage of the US is Black? 13%.
Now, what percentage of the US is Hispanic? 15%.
Now, what percentage of the US is Asian? 5%.

Looks to me like Blacks are really getting shafted on this one!

If we want to go there, what percentage of the players is Black?

If this was only about percentages, why are white officials not only working filling 33% of the slots? You should have a good answer, since this is only about percentages that you brought up.

Peace

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If we want to go there, what percentage of the players is Black?

Holy cow, you're right!!! Blacks are WAYYYYY over-represented as players!! We should be giving more white players spots on these teams so that blacks AND whites are fairly represented.

That's the point you were trying to make, right?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If we want to go there, what percentage of the players is Black?

So we should base the number of officials of each rase on the break down of players who make the teams? This would only make sense if one of the requirements to be an official was to have played at the level you officiate.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If this was only about percentages, why are white officials not only working filling 33% of the slots? You should have a good answer, since this is only about percentages that you brought up.

Camron's point is that it's hard to find a disparity that justifies aggressive action.

And to answer Tomegun's point about there being plenty of African American (and other minorities) officials who are qualified and not working the Tourney;
I think we'd all concede that.

I would question, however, whether the breakdown of qualified officials who aren't getting their break is skewed towards minorities. IOW, how many quality white officials are not getting their break either.

Look, I'll admit I don't know the numbers here. It may very well be that there's a ceiling for minority officials. It may be that there is not. I don't know of any way to determine this except for statistics and percentages; but what do you compare it to?

If you compare it to the players, then the numbers are obviously inadequate; but I don't think that's fair.

If you compare it to the general population, then the numbers seem to (at the top anyway) actually favor minorities.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If we want to go there, what percentage of the players is Black?

About 60, but it is completely irrelevant since officials are not selected from the teams playing. If they were, you might have a small point.

Originally Posted by JRutledge

If this was only about percentages, why are white officials not only working filling 33% of the slots? You should have a good answer, since this is only about percentages that you brought up.

Peace

English please?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Unless you or your family has experienced this scenario, you probably have no idea. Get it?

There are plenty of us on the paler side of the equation who would love to have an honest discussion on this issue. I know you don't mean it this way, but sometimes comments like this can lead us to think we're supposed to just sit and listen. That's not a race discussion, it's a lecture.

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Even though the letter specifically addressed the Sweet Sixteen, we will still go with your numbers:

3 games
9 slots (1 Black per game)
1/3

Now where have I heard this 1/3 reasoning before? It wasn’t too fair back then either.

Just for some historical perspective on this.

First of all, it was 3/5ths, not 1/3rd.

Second of all, it was, believe it or not, beneficial to the African Americans at the time. Southern leaders wanted to have the benefits of counting their slaves for census purposes without having to give them the right to vote. Northerners felt that was unfair (there's that stinking word again), since it would essentially increase the value of a southerner's vote for president and the House of Representatives.

To have granted full credit for the census would have tipped the balance of power towards the slave states and the abominable practice would have lasted longer. While it sounds disgusting to all of us to think of any person as having only 3/5 of the value of his neighbor, we should keep in mind the practical effects of this particular clause.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Sure they are....but this one is simply ridiculous. The real numbers, based on the whole population, not just a carefully selected slice that skew the appearance, just don't support the premise this thread suggests.

Of course it is all because you say so. I think Larry Rose not only has the credibility (than anyone here) to make such a claim based on his background and his current job. Rose is involved with institutions that deal with African-Americans on a much more intimate level. I have relatives that are alumni of one of his schools and a cousin going to another from his conference. And considering that I was at the commencement of one of those schools in the spring of 2008, they probably do not feel the same way you do about the issue. These institutions feelings about equality are not like those here considering their students are mostly African-American. Now I am sure there is more to this topic than what was posted. But this is the very reason we cannot discuss these things here.

Peace