When coaches run things

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

In Ohio this is not a hypothetical. It is official policy. The coaches call the shots in the regular season and the post-season.

We're only half as bad here in the Land of Steady habits. Coaches call the shots in the post season. However, with few exceptions, they select our best officials, according to our peer ratings, and rankings.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

Coaches do blackball officials on rare occasions. If multiple coaches have issues with an official, that official needs to work on either their judgment or their people skills.

Good grief! Dumbest two sentences so far this year.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

If multiple coaches have issues with an official, that official needs to work on either their judgment or their people skills.

Or.........maybe multiple coaches lost games worked by that official.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Or.........maybe multiple coaches lost games worked by that official.

It does not have to be that simple. I have had coaches that were jagbags no matter if they won or lost. Then again coaches have reputations too and sometimes it does not matter who is working, they will continue with their antics. There is a coach in my area that is notorious for banning all kinds of officials. And many he bans are considered some of the best around. That is why you cannot rely on everything a coach says or does.

[eyezen]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It does not have to be that simple. I have had coaches that were jagbags no matter if they won or lost. Then again coaches have reputations too and sometimes it does not matter who is working, they will continue with their antics. There is a coach in my area that is notorious for banning all kinds of officials. And many he bans are considered some of the best around. That is why you cannot rely on everything a coach says or does.

Whoa Rut, call me naive but I had to look that one up

Urban Dictionary: jagbag

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Yeah, but you don't really, really think anything like that really ever happens, do you??? I mean, what kind of an assignor would that be?? And who would want to keep working for that assignor????

That would be an assignor who is a D1 ref and may very well be working a game today.

It is no coincidence that I'm posting this hypothetical situation now.

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Good grief! Dumbest two sentences so far this year.

How many top officials at any level have personality conflicts with several coaches? The answer is zero. To advance in officiating, you must have the confidence of, and be liked by, the coaches and schools.

It's not always fair. But life is not always fair.

The people who complain about coaches having power over them are the ones who will never get there.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

How many top officials at any level have personality conflicts with several coaches? The answer is zero. To advance in officiating, you must have the confidence of, and be liked by, the coaches and schools.

It's not always fair. But life is not always fair.

The people who complain about coaches having power over them are the ones who will never get there.

Wow, this is really ignorant.

There are several top officials who have conflicts with coaches. That will happen in a competitive environment where coaches have a huge stake in the outcome. Officials aren't out there to be liked by coaches. We aren't paid to be their buddies. We are there to administer the game. If coaches have reasonable questions and we have time, we should give them a reasonable answer. Whether or not they "like us" is irrelevant. What coach likes an official who gives them a well-deseved technical foul? None. They like the officials who let them walk all over them. John Adams has stated that officials are spending far too much time with coaches. That is often true. Coaches love the refs who spend a bunch of time with them. Partners and most supervisors generally do not appreciate that.

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Rare? :-) I have seen several excellent officials get blackballed because they had the guts to take care of business with a couple coaches that other officials were intimidated by. I work in a conference where coaches don't have input to an official but they do provide comments which we get to see. They are good for entertainment (very funny), but not much else.

I have seen many mediocre officials who think they are better than they are "take care of business" while goading a coach or being wrong in the first place. The assignors I work for make no bones about coaches factoring in about 75% of our ratings and assignments. When I worked HS ball, it was 50% for regular season and 100% for post-season. Guess what? Those who cannot deal with coaches effectively get very few games or get dropped, and they complain about it. They are also quickly forgotten. No different than the guy who gets passed over for promotion at work because the boss doesn't like them.

Grudges from coaches don't happen because you T them up. They happen because of a personality conflict. The best know how to defuse those so they don't carry forward.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

We're only half as bad here in the Land of Steady habits. Coaches call the shots in the post season. However, with few exceptions, they select our best officials, according to our peer ratings, and rankings.

I never got selected for a state final, BillyMac, so there's clearly still something wrong with the system.

(J/K - my board keeps getting a bunch of assignments, and everyone I know on the list is pretty damn good.)

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

I have seen many mediocre officials who think they are better than they are "take care of business" while goading a coach or being wrong in the first place.

I have seen some poor officials bait coaches into technical fouls too. That is plain wrong. That is not what we are talking about.

The assignors I work for make no bones about coaches factoring in about 75% of our ratings and assignments.

I am really sorry you work in a system where you have handed that much power to the coaches. Sounds like there was a serious lack of cajones in your group when that system got implemented. Most coaches don't know rules, mechanics, or the proper time and place for coach/ref interaction.

When I worked HS ball, it was 50% for regular season and 100% for post-season. Guess what? Those who cannot deal with coaches effectively get very few games or get dropped, and they complain about it. They are also quickly forgotten. No different than the guy who gets passed over for promotion at work because the boss doesn't like them.

I bet if I observed your group, I would see officials spending way too much time with coaches and I bet I would also see some of your "top dogs" not taking care of business like they should.

Grudges from coaches don't happen because you T them up. They happen because of a personality conflict.

True in some cases, completely false in others. I know some coaches who love the officials that they can intimidate and hate the ones who won't allow the coach to cross the line. That whole "personality conflict" term is stupid. We shouldn't be getting to know coaches well enough to have "personality conflicts." We are out there to work with them to administer the game for the athletes. We have an official in our group that about half of the coaches love (the other coaches are smart enough to see through his schmoozing). He spends way too much time with coaches and hurts crew integrity.

The best know how to defuse those so they don't carry forward.

We had a couple coaches in our area that we had to draw a hard line until they learned what they could and couldn't do. I don't think they "liked" any of the officials that expected bench decorum. They liked the ones that they could abuse. Fortunately for us, our assignor was smart enough to send our officials who couldn't be intimidated and the coaches figured it out by the end of their first season.

I was working a district playoff game with a ref last season and he spent way, way too much time with a vocal coach. Twice, on two-shot FT's, I had to wait to toss the ball to the shooter because he was still having a conversation with the coach. At halftime I said, "we are spending way too much time with coaches." He got all offended and said, "in my area, I am consistently rated #1 by our coaches." I dropped it. Later that week, I ran into another official from his area and asked about him. He rolled his eyes and said, "oh yeah, that butt kisser.... some of our coaches love him. His partners can't stand him." Didn't surprise me one bit.

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by zebraman

Wow, this is really ignorant.

There are several top officials who have conflicts with coaches. That will happen in a competitive environment where coaches have a huge stake in the outcome. Officials aren't out there to be liked by coaches. We aren't paid to be their buddies. We are there to administer the game. If coaches have reasonable questions and we have time, we should give them a reasonable answer. Whether or not they "like us" is irrelevant. What coach likes an official who gives them a well-deseved technical foul? None. They like the officials who let them walk all over them. John Adams has stated that officials are spending far too much time with coaches. That is often true. Coaches love the refs who spend a bunch of time with them. Partners and most supervisors generally do not appreciate that.

That is a copout. Top officials have very few conflicts with coaches. In 28 years, I cannot think of any officials who have advanced or maintained a higher slot without having the coaches think very highly of them as officials and people. Sycophants are transparent almost always get exposed.

I had to T 3 coaches this year. I didn't want to give any. I worked post-season for all 3 of them because they all listed me. That's being liked and respected.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by TheOracle

That is a copout. Top officials have very few conflicts with coaches. In 28 years, I cannot think of any officials who have advanced or maintained a higher slot without having the coaches think very highly of them as officials and people. Sycophants are transparent almost always get exposed.

I had to T 3 coaches this year. I didn't want to give any. I worked post-season for all 3 of them because they all listed me. That's being liked and respected.

There is a big difference between being respected and liked. When a coach sees an official walk into the gym and he thinks, "oh good, this guy is fair and he takes charge of the game," that is respect. When an official walks in and the coach thinks, "oh good, this guy will talk with me most of the game and listen to all my comments and criticisms," that is being liked. I don't want to be liked... I want to be respected.

[TheOracle]

I am really sorry you work in a system where you have handed that much power to the coaches. Sounds like there was a serious lack of cajones in your group when that system got implemented. Most coaches don't know rules, mechanics, or the proper time and place for coach/ref interaction.

[/QUOTE]When I worked HS ball, it was 50% for regular season and 100% for post-season. Guess what? Those who cannot deal with coaches effectively get very few games or get dropped, and they complain about it. They are also quickly forgotten. No different than the guy who gets passed over for promotion at work because the boss doesn't like them.

The best know how to defuse those so they don't carry forward.

We had a couple coaches in our area that we had to draw a hard line until they learned what they could and couldn't do. I don't think they "liked" any of the officials that expected bench decorum. They liked the ones that they could abuse. Fortunately for us, our assignor was smart enough to send our officials who couldn't be intimidated and the coaches figured it out by the end of their first season.

I was working a district playoff game with a ref last season and he spent way, way too much time with a vocal coach. Twice, on two-shot FT's, I had to wait to toss the ball to the shooter because he was still having a conversation with the coach. At halftime I said, "we are spending way too much time with coaches." He got all offended and said, "in my area, I am consistently rated #1 by our coaches." I dropped it. Later that week, I ran into another official from his area and asked about him. He rolled his eyes and said, "oh yeah, that butt kisser.... some of our coaches love him. His partners can't stand him." Didn't surprise me one bit.

I understand exactly what you are saying. I just hope that officials know how to show the coaches that line. If you have some young hotshot at his first-high school job, yes, they can certainly be a handful. You have to be stern at times. But if young officials can learn how to communicate with them, they can "take care of business" without burning bridges.

If my partner is talking with a coach during a FT, I just administer the ball. Same goes for any other throw in. That wold have been an easy way to show him, instead of telling him, to quit gabbing so much. Guys who want to brag about their rating or what games they work usually don't have the substance to back it up.

Coaches are never 100% happy with officials. But when there is an underlying respect on both sides, blackballing and screwing good officials n ratings rarely happens. That's my whole point. We can rail agains the system being unfair or figure out a way to work it. I will never kiss anyone's behind. It's not worth it to me. But I will kill them tiwht kindness until it is time not to. When that happens, they always know it, and there are no hard feelings.

I wish I had these skills 20 years ago. The first 10 years taught me some painful lessons about dealing with coaches and schools. I honestly hope people can avoid that. That's where I'm coming from.

[TheOracle]

Originally Posted by zebraman

There is a big difference between being respected and liked. When a coach sees an official walk into the gym and he thinks, "oh good, this guy is fair and he takes charge of the game," that is respect. When an official walks in and the coach thinks, "oh good, this guy will talk with me most of the game and listen to all my comments and criticisms," that is being liked. I don't want to be liked... I want to be respected.

I agree 100%. But I believe that it they do not like you, they won't respect you. Kind of the Machiavelli thing. I'd rather be loved than feared.