Who to call the foul on?

[zm1283]

I don't buy the whole "Call it on who has fewer fouls and who will make less of an impact on the game" crap. That's a copout so you don't have to look like the bad guy. Take care of business if you need to.

I'd either A) Call it on who I thought committed the foul first, or B) If I can't determine that, go with a multiple foul since they did both foul the shooter.

If one player's foul was "more of a foul", and I know one didn't happen before the other, I'll call that player for the foul. I won't however use a player's foul total to determine if he gets it or not.

I had one almost like this at the end of this season. Shooter A1 drives on a fast break right at the lower block on the lane. At pretty much the same time, I see what I think is a foul by B1 on A1's arm from behind him, and B2 is sliding over to try and take a charge. I call B2 for the block because it was "more of a foul" than B1's foul. I know that sounds funny but it's the best term I can come up with.

[BktBallRef]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

First - this is as wrong as it gets. Second - why would you know how many fouls each player has? Do you work games where the fouls are posted on the scoreboard? Other than that, there should be no knowledge on your part of these numbers. Your comment is one of the reasons why. Call the game as it happens. It's up to the player's actions to determine the outcome, not your misguided sense of what has impact and what doesn't. Remember - be in control of the game without controlling the game.

C'mon Mark, you can do better than that. You've never called 2 fouls on a player and was aware of a partner calling a thrd foul on that same player? You've never heard a PA guy announce how many fouls a player has?

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

I would call the foul on whoever committed it first. If, by some miracle, they were both committed at exactly the same split second, then I would call a multiple foul.

The OP said B1 and B2 fouled at the same time.

[bradfordwilkins]

If it literally was the same exact instant, the book clearly says (NF) that it is a multiple foul (4-19-11). If they weren't at the same instant, you could again refer to the book and call a False Multiple Foul (4-19-12).

Case play 4-19-12: B1 fouls airborne A1 who is in the act of shooting. Before shooter A1 returns one foot to the flor, he/she is fouled by B2 who has moved into A1's landing area. The ball (a) does or (b) does not, enter the basket.

Ruling This is a false multiple foul and each foul carries its own penalty. In (a) the goal is counted and A1 is awarded one free throw for each foul. In (b), A1 is awarded two free throws for each foul (10 Penalty 6, 7)

All of this call it on the weaker player, less fouls, bench player, etc shouldn't matter under HS rules...

[JRutledge]

Please people, we pick and choose all the time to not call a multiple foul. How you pick and choose is up to you. I do know that in a game I had this year where there was clearly not a multiple foul situation but the "star" fouled out as a result of my foul. You would have thought the sky fell by the way they reacted. If I had called a foul on another player, the reaction would have been different. Now because there is tape and I clearly would have to ignore what the star did, I called a foul on the star. I stuck with my call and it does not bother me, but if there was a multiple foul possibility where it is one or two players involved, I would have given the foul to the non-star in a minute. Or in some situations I had given the foul to the jerk player that has been causing problems all game long. I just know I am not calling a multiple foul.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by bradfordwilkins

If it literally was the same exact instant, the book clearly says (NF) that it is a multiple foul (4-19-11). If they weren't at the same instant, you could again refer to the book and call a False Multiple Foul (4-19-12).
All of this call it on the weaker player, less fouls, bench player, etc shouldn't matter under HS rules...

Because it is a dumb foul to call. If you call that, you have now given two fouls to the same player on the same action. Something likely happened first and if you are not sure pick one. I have never seen anyone call a multiple foul and hope someone never does. I do not care what the casebook says. The casebook says a lot of things, I would advocate being nit-picky and calling everything no matter what. You will get more into a debate that it was not a multiple foul than it is worth arguing.

Peace

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by bradfordwilkins

If it literally was the same exact instant, the book clearly says (NF) that it is a multiple foul (4-19-11). If they weren't at the same instant, you could again refer to the book and call a False Multiple Foul (4-19-12).

Case play 4-19-12: B1 fouls airborne A1 who is in the act of shooting. Before shooter A1 returns one foot to the flor, he/she is fouled by B2 who has moved into A1's landing area. The ball (a) does or (b) does not, enter the basket.

Ruling This is a false multiple foul and each foul carries its own penalty. In (a) the goal is counted and A1 is awarded one free throw for each foul. In (b), A1 is awarded two free throws for each foul (10 Penalty 6, 7)

All of this call it on the weaker player, less fouls, bench player, etc shouldn't matter under HS rules...

All I know is that in the games I work, I can't hardly think of a quicker way to commit career suicide than to come out with two fouls on different players on the same play. My assignor (yikes) would have a field day with that one. I can feel my ears burning now and I didn't even do it.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by BktBallRef

The OP said B1 and B2 fouled at the same time.

I think the baseball analogy would be the phrase, "The tie goes to the runner." I've been told the correct call is, "There's no such thing as a tie." The ball beat the runner, or the runner beat the ball, even if it's by a mere fraction of a second, and it's the umpire's job to determine which it is.

I think the same applies here - B1 and B2 didn't foul at the same time, one fouled right before the other, even though it was approximately the same time. Have you ever called, or have your partners ever called, a multiple foul on a relatively routine play like two defenders on a shooter?

Look, I get the theory of "game management". But it bothers me a little that we are, essentially, making a call based on what will cause us the least amount of grief, not what is correct. Sometimes, in that very situation, what is correct and what will cause us the least amount of grief are the same call. But, sometimes it's not. I'm uncomfortable with looking at a play, seeing A1 (the star) foul right before A2 (the sub), and purposely calling the foul on A2 solely because the coach and fans won't give me as much grief about the call, all in the name of "game management". There may be times where this is acceptable, and yes, I have made calls that were "by rule" incorrect, but ok by "game management standards". But I think where that line is drawn is different than "every time" in this type of play. It is too close, in my opinion, to simply using the excuse of "game management" to not make the correct, but unpopular calls, say, late in a close game.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

All I know is that in the games I work, I can't hardly think of a quicker way to commit career suicide than to come out with two fouls on different players on the same play. My assignor (yikes) would have a field day with that one. I can feel my ears burning now and I didn't even do it.

The last thing I want is rocky's assigner calling me, so I'll never call the multiple on this.

I'll pick one; the hardest contact, the contact that most affected the shot, the first contact, the kid with the uglier Mom, the kid with the louder Dad, maybe even the kid who doesn't have four fouls. The situation itself will determine how I pick, but I'm going to pick.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I can feel my ears burning now and I didn't even do it.

I heard your assignor is good enough to read minds; even you thinking about such a thing is worth a phone call.

[Raymond]

I'm calling it on the shorter player because he has no business being in the paint with the big fellas.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I think the same applies here - B1 and B2 didn't foul at the same time, one fouled right before the other, even though it was approximately the same time.

Look, I have no problem with not calling multiple fouls. I don't remember ever calling one myself. What I am saying is that when you choose to make the decision that one foul came before the other, you shouldn't use criteria such as which defender is the "star" player and/or which player has the most fouls. I guess a good criteria to use is which player's foul interfered the most with the ball handler's ability to do whatever they were trying to do.

As to not knowing (or caring) how many individual fouls a player has at any given time during a game, I try to ignore any indication of that, except if the total is five. In fact, I've told scorers numerous times not to state that stat to me or my partner (except for five, of course).

Whenever a situation occurs in which a player gets a lot of foul calls early, I switch to one of my alter personalities so I forget that it happened. I think Juulie's actually witnessed this happening.

[26 Year Gap]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'm calling it on the shorter player because he has no business being in the paint with the big fellas.

Who do you think steals the ball from the big fellas?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I think the baseball analogy would be the phrase, "The tie goes to the runner." I've been told the correct call is, "There's no such thing as a tie." The ball beat the runner, or the runner beat the ball, even if it's by a mere fraction of a second, and it's the umpire's job to determine which it is.

The reason the "tie goes to the runner" theory does not work, because the rule says no such thing. The runner must beat the throw or tag. If there is a tie, the runner did not beat the throw or the tag and they are out.

This is why umpires often say, "The tie goes to the umpire." That usually means they are going to be out.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by 26 Year Gap

Who do you think steals the ball from the big fellas?

And guess which one he is?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Look, I have no problem with not calling multiple fouls. I don't remember ever calling one myself. What I am saying is that when you choose to make the decision that one foul came before the other, you shouldn't use criteria such as which defender is the "star" player and/or which player has the most fouls. I guess a good criteria to use is which player's foul interfered the most with the ball handler's ability to do whatever they were trying to do.

Mark, the problem is you're not determining which foul first. That's irrelevant on this play, since the ball was live the whole time. You're determining which one to call, and you've got to choose some criteria to use. You can flip a coin (or a point guard) for all I care. I'd prefer to base it on which contact had more effect on the shot.