the stare down

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

I'm sorry to have to disagree with you Juulie. If it works for you that's great but I personally don't think that there is ever a need for an official (especially if your an adult) to stare down a player. It is an intimidating appearance and is that the impression that needs to be delivered.

Again that is my opinion and your welcome to it, Free of Charge.

Yea, free advice is worth what you pay for it...

I'm not talking about staring them down. I'm talking about the look your mom gives you when you're onstage singing in the choir, and you are holding up the "rabbit ears' behind the person next to you; or you're waving to someone. It says, "I'm not gonna do anything yet, but don't push me". It only takes a second, and it doesn't requre the kid to break the eye contact, you can do that yourself. You put up one eyebrow, tilt chin slightly downward, and just glower for a second. Then put face back to normal and go on about business. Yup, it works for me, and it might work for others.

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

Yea, free advice is worth what you pay for it...

I'm not talking about staring them down. I'm talking about the look your mom gives you when you're onstage singing in the choir, and you are holding up the "rabbit ears' behind the person next to you; or you're waving to someone. It says, "I'm not gonna do anything yet, but don't push me". It only takes a second, and it doesn't requre the kid to break the eye contact, you can do that yourself. You put up one eyebrow, tilt chin slightly downward, and just glower for a second. Then put face back to normal and go on about business. Yup, it works for me, and it might work for others.

Yes I understood that you said it was "The Look". And I get its a look that really a mother has perfected. My reference is like you say to stare down a player in a fashion that is just daring them to "go ahead try anythign and I'm a gonna ring ya up". Those stares are teh intimidating ones that have no place in our game. Thanks for clearing it all up.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

Yes I understood that you said it was "The Look". And I get its a look that really a mother has perfected. My reference is like you say to stare down a player in a fashion that is just daring them to "go ahead try anythign and I'm a gonna ring ya up". Those stares are teh intimidating ones that have no place in our game. Thanks for clearing it all up.

I almost fell out of my seat laughing so hard.

What do you want officials to do then? Not say anything or do anything to a kid to ever intimidate them? If players think they can do whatever without consequences, they will do it. We have the right to let them know they are crossing a line or close to that line.

This is the problem with our society. We have adults that advocate that people in authority cannot do things to restore order. I can tell you what I am going to do is a lot nicer than the woman that yelled at the kid in the stands that said something inappropriate. Our tool is to also T, but if I can prevent that with some intimidation that they know I am aware of their behavior or their teammates are aware of their behavior, that is a win-win for me.

It is my right as an adult to not have some kid in my face when I am in an authoritative position like an official, teacher, coach, principal or most of all parents.

Peace

[Raymond]

Sorry, but I give a "stare" sometimes also. Always involves a kid who is either being disrepectful or is encroaching the territory of playing dirty. Sometimes the "stare" serves the purpose of letting the kid know he is being watched.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Sorry, but I give a "stare" sometimes also. Always involves a kid who is either being disrepectful or is encroaching the territory of playing dirty. Sometimes the "stare" serves the purpose of letting the kid know he is being watched.

No need to be sorry, it was warranted. It's safe to say you don't do this when it's not warranted.

[SmokeEater]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I almost fell out of my seat laughing so hard.

What do you want officials to do then? Not say anything or do anything to a kid to ever intimidate them? If players think they can do whatever without consequences, they will do it. We have the right to let them know they are crossing a line or close to that line.

This is the problem with our society. We have adults that advocate that people in authority cannot do things to restore order. I can tell you what I am going to do is a lot nicer than the woman that yelled at the kid in the stands that said something inappropriate. Our tool is to also T, but if I can prevent that with some intimidation that they know I am aware of their behavior or their teammates are aware of their behavior, that is a win-win for me.

It is my right as an adult to not have some kid in my face when I am in an authoritative position like an official, teacher, coach, principal or most of all parents.

Peace

I am sorry if my opinion is not conducive to your opinion. But hopefully you can conceed I am entitled to mine.

Now as an answer to some of the items you mentioned you have other resources to deal with these kids who are crossing the line, Technicals or if they get in your "face" as you say, then toss them I suppose.

BUT it is my honest opinion that you make the call and move on, you don't stand there and stare at a young person and "try" (term used loosly) to intimidate them. That is all I am saying, Do one or the other but don't be the big Bully (again loose terminology).

I understand Juulies meaning when she says give them the look. I already clarified that. The intent that you seem to find in my comments is unfounded.
I don't see any point in continuing this further.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

I am sorry if my opinion is not conducive to your opinion. But hopefully you can conceed I am entitled to mine.

When did I say you were not entitled to your opinion? That is why we are here right, to share opinions right?

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

Now as an answer to some of the items you mentioned you have other resources to deal with these kids who are crossing the line, Technicals or if they get in your "face" as you say, then toss them I suppose.

There was no suggestion that the official got in the kids face. But if getting in a kid's face is a problem then what do you want officials to do when they want to talk directly to a player. I have had several times where players are doing the little "You push my hand, I am going to move your hand" routine. Do you think I do not say anything to the players or approach them? I guess I am getting in their face by doing this based on how you want things to be handled. BTW, the best officials I know have tools in their toolbox to handle situations without giving a T.

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

BUT it is my honest opinion that you make the call and move on, you don't stand there and stare at a young person and "try" (term used loosly) to intimidate them. That is all I am saying, Do one or the other but don't be the big Bully (again loose terminology).

Once again, the claim was this was only 3 or 4 seconds long. Based on how it is taught by many clinicians (and since I am one in my state and this did happen in my state); it is encouraged that officials stay at the spot of the foul and not just leave. I know I have stood around longer at the spot when players hit the floor or to make sure I get the proper number when the foul is in a crowd. It is possible that the "scowl" was not an intentional act and no one has pointed it out to the official. Or it could have been a purposeful act to let the player know to knock it off or he is being watched. Without video none of us really will know for sure. It is possible that Fullor30 is reading too much into the situation. I know I have no problem being asked about things I do. Many officials I know come in and ask questions after the game (during the playoffs) so they can have situations clarified so they can learn. I know I do the very same thing when I watch games. I just think there is too much speculation without actually talking to the official.

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

I understand Juulies meaning when she says give them the look. I already clarified that. The intent that you seem to find in my comments is unfounded.
I don't see any point in continuing this further.

On some level I feel they are unfounded. I feel that way for one I have never heard anyone suggest you cannot look at players (officials or camps that have much more information than I could ever offer at this time). And that is why many people here that are veterans have told you they do similar things or have seen the tool used. It just sound like you personally do not like the tactic (which is your right) but have not explained why it should not be used other than a personal opinion. That is why it is unfounded on some level to me (your words not mine).

Peace

[Mark Padgett]

I only use the stare down in 3rd grade games. Sometimes the kids cry, especially the girls.

[rockyroad]

I use the "look" on players who decide they want to mouth off to myself or a partner...it's not a stare down, it's my "teacher look" that I have perfected after 20 years in a classroom with 7th graders. It works perfectly on those players who are standing at the brink of earning themselves a T and almost always causes them to step back and tone it down. Usually the coach will react to it also - I think the "teacher look" and the "mother look" are universally understood.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I use the "look" on players who decide they want to mouth off to myself or a partner...it's not a stare down, it's my "teacher look" that I have perfected after 20 years in a classroom with 7th graders. It works perfectly on those players who are standing at the brink of earning themselves a T and almost always causes them to step back and tone it down. Usually the coach will react to it also - I think the "teacher look" and the "mother look" are universally understood.

Two of my cousins had their mother as an elementary school teacher one year! Yikes!

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Two of my cousins had their mother as an elementary school teacher one year! Yikes!

All three of my sons had their mom (that would be my wife for the challenged ones amongst us) as their 6th grade teacher. She made me sign up for a time and come every time there were parent conferences!! She has a REALLY good "teacher look" that makes my bladder go weak at times.

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I use the "look" on players who decide they want to mouth off to myself or a partner...it's not a stare down, it's my "teacher look" that I have perfected after 20 years in a classroom with 7th graders. It works perfectly on those players who are standing at the brink of earning themselves a T and almost always causes them to step back and tone it down. Usually the coach will react to it also - I think the "teacher look" and the "mother look" are universally understood.

Precisely, it's not a look you initiate but a reaction to a previous action.

I do it many a time.

[mbyron]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

I think the "teacher look" and the "mother look" are universally understood.

I have anecdotal evidence in support of this claim. When I was a kid, my friend's grandmother went on a cruise near Norway. Some European kids were climbing on the railings, at risk of falling overboard. She said, "Ah ah ah" to get their attention, and then gave them "the look." They slunk back down to the deck and went to play elsewhere.

[grunewar]

We discussed "the look" at players. How about this.....

Updated: March 20, 2009, 9:30 PM ET
Referees union critical of NBA for fine
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Associated Press

NEW YORK -- The NBA's referees union criticized the league on Friday for fining an official who was involved in a dispute with Boston Celtics coach Doc Rivers.

Rivers was fined $25,000 Thursday for his postgame rant two nights earlier in Chicago against Bill Kennedy, who was also docked an undisclosed amount. Rivers complained afterward that Kennedy had stared at him, goading the Celtics coach into receiving a second technical foul and an automatic ejection.

The referees, however, claim that is what they're trained to do, instead of yelling back at the coaches, and plan to appeal.

"Some things you cannot take out of the arsenal of the officials. It's not a stare to start some kind of disagreement or goad him into getting ejected, it's just like, 'Hey, enough is enough," referees union spokesman Lamell McMorris told The Associated Press. "And basically he didn't even stare him down. He walked away, he turned his back per what he is trained to do and he removed himself from the situation.

"As far as we're concerned, Billy Kennedy followed every rule according to the referee's manual as it relates to handling situations like this. The only person in this scenario who has had a pattern of behavior that is unprofessional is Doc Rivers, not Billy Kennedy."

The referees noted that Rivers had previously been fined this season for his public complaints about the officiating, getting penalized $15,000 in February for "verbal abuse of game officials" following a loss to the Los Angeles Lakers.

Rivers was thrown out with 29.8 seconds left in the Celtics' 127-121 loss in Chicago on Tuesday, calling his second technical foul "the most unprofessional tech I've ever had."

"[Kennedy] stood there and goaded me and goaded me and goaded me and stared at me," Rivers said after the game. "Look at the film. I actually walked away. He asked me, 'Where do you want the ball?' And I said, 'Ask them,' talking about our players. That's my right to say that, and I walked away. He stood there and stared me down and stared me down and goaded me until I turned around and said, 'What?' That's when I got thrown out of the game."

Before Friday's game at San Antonio, Rivers said he wasn't happy with the fine he received. But he said he knows the rules and thought it was handled right.

"I'm not going too deep into this whole thing," Rivers said. "But to me it looks like when the whistle blowers don't like when the whistle blows. Bottom line."

McMorris said one league official told Kennedy there would be no action against him, but believed it must have changed its mind based on the media coverage of Rivers' outburst. He wouldn't say how much Kennedy lost, but, "in comparison to what Bill Kennedy gets paid and what Doc Rivers gets paid, it was not equitable."

McMorris added the fine was a "dangerous situation" as the officials prepare for the postseason.

"The thing that's most troubling is the fact that this person was fined for doing his job and for following the rules and the training and for trying to do his job to minimize the situation and the conflict, and for walking away," McMorris said. "So that's very troubling to all the officials and they're very alarmed by this matter, because one matter like this affects the ability of all of them to do their jobs."

Rivers said he was in support with the fines being public.

"I do like the fact, and I will say this, coaches have been publicly fined for years," Rivers said. "And now I think it's good when everybody is publicly fined. ...If you're going to make it public for one you should make it public for all. And I don't have a problem with that at all."


Copyright 2009 by The Associated Press

[fullor30]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I almost fell out of my seat laughing so hard.

What do you want officials to do then? Not say anything or do anything to a kid to ever intimidate them? If players think they can do whatever without consequences, they will do it. We have the right to let them know they are crossing a line or close to that line.

This is the problem with our society. We have adults that advocate that people in authority cannot do things to restore order. I can tell you what I am going to do is a lot nicer than the woman that yelled at the kid in the stands that said something inappropriate. Our tool is to also T, but if I can prevent that with some intimidation that they know I am aware of their behavior or their teammates are aware of their behavior, that is a win-win for me.

It is my right as an adult to not have some kid in my face when I am in an authoritative position like an official, teacher, coach, principal or most of all parents.

Peace

Whoa Jeff, come on back to herd fella. Stay on point, there was no mention of 'restore order'. It was choir boy nice at this game.