YHO - Technical Foul?

[JugglingReferee]

Play: City Semi-Final, 4th quarter, 0:46s left. Team A losing by 4; ball in frontcourt. T is table side, L opposite side. Ball goes OB on endline, about 5 feet inside the 3-point line on the table side. T is 28 feet away (slightly above the 28' hash mark). One player from each team goes for the ball; no player closer than the other (from what I can tell). L calls for help and T gives the thumbs up to use the arrow.

Arrow points to Team B.

A bit of confusion since the L after asking for help, signalled in Team A's direction. (He didn't do it because he changed his mind on the call.) T explains to Team A coach that the L pointed in error, and explains how the help mechanic works.

T is about to slide over to opposite side as the new L for Team B's backcourt endline throw-in. Team A #20 walks right by the T (new L), says out loud, about 8 feet from his own coach, and says while looking right at the T (new L), "What are you, stupid?" While saying this, he gives a gesture of a few fingers pointed to the temple on his head, and swirls his fingers.

Thoughts?

[just another ref]

My thought is this guy is saying: "We've lost the game, so let me take this opportunity to show my a**."

[Rich]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Play: City Semi-Final, 4th quarter, 0:46s left. Team A losing by 4; ball in frontcourt. T is table side, L opposite side. Ball goes OB on endline, about 5 feet inside the 3-point line on the table side. T is 28 feet away (slightly above the 28' hash mark). One player from each team goes for the ball; no player closer than the other (from what I can tell). L calls for help and T gives the thumbs up to use the arrow.

Arrow points to Team B.

A bit of confusion since the L after asking for help, signalled in Team A's direction. (He didn't do it because he changed his mind on the call.) T explains to Team A coach that the L pointed in error, and explains how the help mechanic works.

T is about to slide over to opposite side as the new L for Team B's backcourt endline throw-in. Team A #20 walks right by the T (new L), says out loud, about 8 feet from his own coach, and says while looking right at the T (new L), "What are you, stupid?" While saying this, he gives a gesture of a few fingers pointed to the temple on his head, and swirls his fingers.

Thoughts?

I'd probably get rid of him in a rec game. That said, I can't remember going to the arrow on an OOB call in 10 years. If I don't know who it's off of (but I saw it), and my partner comes to me, I'm giving it my best guess. YMMV.

[eg-italy]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Play: City Semi-Final, 4th quarter, 0:46s left. Team A losing by 4; ball in frontcourt. T is table side, L opposite side. Ball goes OB on endline, about 5 feet inside the 3-point line on the table side. T is 28 feet away (slightly above the 28' hash mark). One player from each team goes for the ball; no player closer than the other (from what I can tell). L calls for help and T gives the thumbs up to use the arrow.

Arrow points to Team B.

A bit of confusion since the L after asking for help, signalled in Team A's direction. (He didn't do it because he changed his mind on the call.) T explains to Team A coach that the L pointed in error, and explains how the help mechanic works.

T is about to slide over to opposite side as the new L for Team B's backcourt endline throw-in. Team A #20 walks right by the T (new L), says out loud, about 8 feet from his own coach, and says while looking right at the T (new L), "What are you, stupid?" While saying this, he gives a gesture of a few fingers pointed to the temple on his head, and swirls his fingers.

Thoughts?

First of all the L should make a call, unless the ball is coming from above the foul line (which is not the case). But if he asks for help he should do nothing, leaving all signals to the T. A jump ball is really the last choice.

It's the L who should say he pointed in the wrong direction, after a brief huddle. Otherwise this could appear an overrule by the T to a decision of the L.

That said, #20 awarded himself a T. And, I should add, the L awarded a poor evaluation (lack of concentration in the last minute ) The T was not in a correct position: he should have been at the foul line extended, I believe, at least if using FIBA mechanics.

Ciao

[Scrapper1]

Personally, if I look for help, I don't want to get a thumbs-up. If you don't know, that's all I need. Then I can either go with the thumbs-up myself or go with the look that I had, even if it wasn't 100%.

[Amesman]

Regardless whether the officials hiccuped on this one a bit (in perception or reality), A#20 would have been looking at my T signal before he twirled his "crazy" fingers a second rotation. And he might have gotten one for each rotation. (Though I would have stopped before it rose to 16 FTs )

[bob jenkins]

If I go for help, I use what the T (or C) has. I don't want a "guess". If they don't have anything, go to the arrow.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Play: City Semi-Final, 4th quarter, 0:46s left. Team A losing by 4; ball in frontcourt. T is table side, L opposite side. Ball goes OB on endline, about 5 feet inside the 3-point line on the table side. T is 28 feet away (slightly above the 28' hash mark). One player from each team goes for the ball; no player closer than the other (from what I can tell). L calls for help and T gives the thumbs up to use the arrow.

Arrow points to Team B.

A bit of confusion since the L after asking for help, signalled in Team A's direction. (He didn't do it because he changed his mind on the call.) T explains to Team A coach that the L pointed in error, and explains how the help mechanic works.

T is about to slide over to opposite side as the new L for Team B's backcourt endline throw-in. Team A #20 walks right by the T (new L), says out loud, about 8 feet from his own coach, and says while looking right at the T (new L), "What are you, stupid?" While saying this, he gives a gesture of a few fingers pointed to the temple on his head, and swirls his fingers.

Thoughts?

Juggs:

I have good news and bad news.

First the good news: A20's actions fit the defintion of a flagrant TF.

Now the bad news: Once the L went to the T for help without signalling whose was going to get the throw-in, the call became the T's call. The T has three choices: 1) Point towards A's basket; 2) Point toward B's basket; or 3) Signal held ball and go to the AP Arrow.

The L's resposibilities in this play, in order, are: 1) Signal the Timer to stop the clock when the ball went out-of-bounds and thus became dead; 2a) Signal toward A's basket or 2b) signal towards B's basket, or 2c) signal held ball and go to the AP Arrow or 2d) give no signal and go to his partner for help. When L chooses (2d) the decision is now made by the T.

I do not have the NFHS Officials Manual or NCAA CCA Men's or Women's manuals in front of me but that is the correct procedure. The procedure that you and your partner made it appear that he was changing his mind. My using the procedure I described, enables the officials to make a decision quickly and if the T is questioned he has a simple explination: The L was blocked from seeing who last touched the ball and came to me for help making it my decision and I saw it this way.

MTD, Sr.

[BillyMac]

From my pregame:

For out-of-bounds help, let's get it right. Come together for a change if needed. If I have no idea and I look to you for help, just give a directional signal. No need to come to me. Just point. If you don't know, give me a jump ball signal. If I signal but I get it wrong then blow the whistle and come to me. Tell me what you saw and let me decide if I’m going to change it.

[Mark Padgett]

The only time you should have a jump ball on an OOB play is if the ball went off both players equally at exactly the same time. This happened once in 1953, I think.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

This happened once in.

Mark Padgett: You were officiating in 1953? Wow. You're almost as old as Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Billy Mac said the most important two word for all sports officials: Officials Pre-game!

My partners know the three thinks to look for when I make an out-of-bounds call:

1) I sound my whistle, give the stop-the-clock for a violation signal and then signal which way the ball is going to go (except for that rare occasion, I think it was in the Kansas vs. Missouri game played at KU on March 11, 1907, Missouri won the game 34-31, when you have to signal a jump ball because the ball went off both players equally at exactly the same time). Only if you are 200% sure that I have the call wrong should you come to me and discuss it and if my call needs to be changed I will change it.

2) I sound my whistle, give the stop-the-clock for a violation signal and then signal which way the ball is going to go but I look at you while doing it. It means if you want me to change my call, lets discuss it now.

3) I sound my whistle, give the stop-the-clock for a violation signal and then do nothing except look at you with that "deer caught in the headlights look". That means I do not have a clue has to who touched it last, so it is your call now.

MTD, Sr.


P.S. Dr. Naismith was the very first men's basketball coach at Kansas and is the only men''s coach at KU to have a losing record at KU but he coached a player that went on to become coaching giant: Dr. Forrest C. "Phog" Allen (who was my maternal grandmother's chiropractor, I kid you not; my mother grew up about 15 miles from Lawrence and graduated from KU in 1942). Dr. Naismith was originally hired by KU in 1898 as Chapel Director and as a physical education instructor, but under Dr. Naismith, KU played it bitter rival to the east for the first time in basketball March 1097. They played two games that year, both of them at KU: The first game I officiated and the second game the very next day on Tuesday, March 12, 1907, and the Jayhawks also lost that game (34-21). Phog Allen went on to coach the following players that went on to become Hall of Fame college coaches: Adolph Rupp, Dean Smith, Ralph Miller, Dutch Lonborg, and John McLendon; as well as Hall of Fame players Wilt Chamberlin and Clyde Lovellette.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Dr. Forrest C. "Phog" Allen (who was my maternal grandmother's chiropractor, no kidding).

Dr. Naismith was my geriatric physician. No kidding.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

Dr. Naismith was my geriatric physician.

No kidding? He told me he was a proctologist. Right before he was about to give me an exam, as he was putting on his gloves, I said to him, "Doc, I don't mind if you keep your ring on, but please take off your wristwatch."

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

My partners know the three things to look for.

It is my understanding that all of your partners also know what not to look for, i.e., you coming out of the shower after the game, naked. Too many of them that didn't do this ended up puking all over their shoes. It would get real messy.