Dribbling situations

[jdmara]

I have been struggling with a few situations lately and need some input. I have my opinion of the correct ruling but I'm interested what you all think.

Sit 1: A1 is dribbling down the court pushing the tempo of the game, he looks up to view the layout of the players up-court and looses track of the ball. The ball bounces over his head, returns to the floor untouched, bounces again, and A1 then continues his dribble.

Sit 2: A1 passes to A2 on the wing. A2 dribbles towards the top of the key and attempted to grab the ball to end his dribble. A2, however, does not get a good grip and drops the ball. The ball hits the ground and A2 slaps the ball to the ground to gather the ball and catches it after it hits the floor.

Thanks

-Josh

[zebraman]

There is nothing illegal about play number one. It may look ugly, but it's legal.

Play number two sounds illegal from your description. A2 fumbled the ball and is allowed to retrieve their own fumble. However, when A2 slapped the ball to the ground it was the start of a new dribble (after the fumble) and that would be illegal.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by jdmara

I have been struggling with a few situations lately and need some input. I have my opinion of the correct ruling but I'm interested what you all think.

Sit 1: A1 is dribbling down the court pushing the tempo of the game, he looks up to view the layout of the players up-court and looses track of the ball. The ball bounces over his head, returns to the floor untouched, bounces again, and A1 then continues his dribble.

Sit 2: A1 passes to A2 on the wing. A2 dribbles towards the top of the key and attempted to grab the ball to end his dribble. A2, however, does not get a good grip and drops the ball. The ball hits the ground and A2 slaps the ball to the ground to gather the ball and catches it after it hits the floor.

Thanks

-Josh

Josh:

Sit. 1: Legal.


Sit. 2:

First, base upon your description of the play, I a, going to assume that Aw ended his dribble by touching the ball with both ends and then fumbled or muffed the ball. At this point, there is team control by Team A but not player control by any player on Team A. A2 can recover the ball, but cannot dribble the ball if no other player touches the ball before A2 regains player control of the ball.

Second, based upon your description of the play I would not rule an illegal dribble by A2. Why? A player must have established player control before said player can start to dribble the ball. One way, for a player who does not have control of the ball, to establish player control of the ball is to catch the ball. Your own description states the A2 slapped the ball in an effort to catch the ball; that should tell you that A2 did not have control of the ball and his slapping of the ball was not the start of a new dribble but an effort to recover the ball.

MTD, Sr.

[Nevadaref]

I agree with MTD.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Josh:

Sit. 1: Legal.


Sit. 2:

First, base upon your description of the play, I a, going to assume that Aw ended his dribble by touching the ball with both ends and then fumbled or muffed the ball. At this point, there is team control by Team A but not player control by any player on Team A. A2 can recover the ball, but cannot dribble the ball if no other player touches the ball before A2 regains player control of the ball.

Second, based upon your description of the play I would not rule an illegal dribble by A2. Why? A player must have established player control before said player can start to dribble the ball. One way, for a player who does not have control of the ball, to establish player control of the ball is to catch the ball. Your own description states the A2 slapped the ball in an effort to catch the ball; that should tell you that A2 did not have control of the ball and his slapping of the ball was not the start of a new dribble but an effort to recover the ball.

MTD, Sr.

Exactly my opinion of the rulings. You couldn't have said it better.

Sit 1 I've called (or have not called) this several times this season and the coaches are always going ballistic at my explanation.

Sit 2 is something that has happened multiple times this past week. I haven't called this an illegal dribble but my partner(s) believe it is.

-Josh

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Second, based upon your description of the play I would not rule an illegal dribble by A2. Why? A player must have established player control before said player can start to dribble the ball.

Mark, I agree with your conclusion, but I disagree with this portion. A player does not need to hold the ball before he can start dribbling. Imagine this scenario where, instead of grabbing it after he slaps it, he keeps slapping it towards the floor. That's a dribble, but he never held it (this happens all the time.)

So, the question is, at what point do you consider a player to have established control by dribbling even though he never held the ball?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So, the question is, at what point do you consider a player to have established control by dribbling even though he never held the ball?

Judgment.

[Adam]

I knew I should have trademarked that.

[imagomer]

jdmara opened with

"Sit 1: A1 is dribbling down the court pushing the tempo of the game, he looks up to view the layout of the players up-court and looses track of the ball. The ball bounces over his head, returns to the floor untouched, bounces again, and A1 then continues his dribble."



What if dribbler had lost track of a high dribble and reached up an "put a lid on the dribble" at a height of about 5 feet and kept his hand on the ball as the ball rose to a height of 7 feet (or as high as the dribbler could reach)?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by imagomer

What if dribbler had lost track of a high dribble and reached up an "put a lid on the dribble" at a height of about 5 feet and kept his hand on the ball as the ball rose to a height of 7 feet (or as high as the dribbler could reach)?

What if he does??? Did the ball come to rest in his hand? Was the palm of the hand turned up toward the ceiling? Those high dribbles always cause people to yell and scream, but very rarely is there any violation to call.

[gslefeb]

Why isn't the slap considered a dribble?

I've read MTD's reponse:

"A player must have established player control before said player can start to dribble the ball."

Example: If A1 passes to A2. A2 does not catch the ball, but slaps it to the floor. I would consider that a start of a dribble. Is that not correct?

Or is the term "slap" what I'm missing? By "slap" there is no control. While a controlled push to the floor indicates the start of the dribble?

[mbyron]

Weird moves:

By the opponent: must be some kind of violation!

By fan's team: mad ball skills!

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by gslefeb

Why isn't the slap considered a dribble?

I've read MTD's reponse:

"A player must have established player control before said player can start to dribble the ball."

Example: If A1 passes to A2. A2 does not catch the ball, but slaps it to the floor. I would consider that a start of a dribble. Is that not correct?

Or is the term "slap" what I'm missing? By "slap" there is no control. While a controlled push to the floor indicates the start of the dribble?

"Slap" is not defined.

You need to decide whether it's a fumble or a controlled move to be a dribble.

87.6% of the time on the pass, it's a fumble.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

"Slap" is not defined.

You need to decide whether it's a fumble or a controlled move to be a dribble.

87.6% of the time on the pass, it's a fumble.

I agree with you, except I think it's more like 87.9%. The question becomes what if the player "slaps" the ball multiple times to gain control, is this considered a dribble? Of course it's opinion. But I am more apt to call it a dribble if it takes more than one to control the ball (at least at the varsity level)

-Josh

[imagomer]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

What if he does??? Did the ball come to rest in his hand? Was the palm of the hand turned up toward the ceiling? Those high dribbles always cause people to yell and scream, but very rarely is there any violation to call.

My point exactly - I have had this called as a "carry" in at least 6 of my games this year. I think it's often a case of an official blowing because it was ugly, or he or she may just not know the rule . . . I'm at a small school and we seem to be a training ground.