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Old Tue Nov 19, 2002, 04:17pm
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Question

4-15-4Note3: It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once."

So the player can, while holding the ball, touch it to the floor, without dribbling. I saw a kid, in a pick-up game, set the ball on the floor and take his hands off of it as part of a really pathetic shot fake. He then picked the ball back up and dribbled. Violation?

We're not likely to see this in a real game, but...
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Old Tue Nov 19, 2002, 04:49pm
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Question

What if he but the ball down on the floor and then ran around the opponent, ala Harlem Globtrotters, and then came back to the ball picked it up and dribbled?
What do you have...if anything?

RD
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Old Tue Nov 19, 2002, 05:59pm
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I wouldn't think you can call setting the ball on the ground the beginning of a dribble..... so I'm thinking nothing besides TURNOVER opportunity....

Step back a little farther, stupid and it's mine.... ahhh haaa it's mine anyway! Lay-up.
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Old Tue Nov 19, 2002, 06:04pm
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I have to think about this situation more, but I think there is nothing to call. HOwever, I do know that if a player is on the floor, with knee or sitting, then places the ball on the floor, and then stands up and picks up the ball, it is a travelling violation.
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Old Wed Nov 20, 2002, 09:32am
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Quote:
Originally posted by bard
4-15-4Note3: It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once."

So the player can, while holding the ball, touch it to the floor, without dribbling. I saw a kid, in a pick-up game, set the ball on the floor and take his hands off of it as part of a really pathetic shot fake. He then picked the ball back up and dribbled. Violation?

We're not likely to see this in a real game, but...
You want to bet? Now that ESPN2 is showing these AND1 guys on their tour all the time, and the video tape is everywhere, I'll bet there will be lot of crap like this in the fourth quarter of not-close varsity boys' games this year.
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Old Wed Nov 20, 2002, 10:01am
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And I think you will also see on those And 1 tapes that there aren't any officials standing around making calls either.

I'm a coach also, and if any of my players tried that crap, they'd be on the bench before they could finish the move.
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Old Wed Nov 20, 2002, 10:22am
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Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally posted by bard
4-15-4Note3: It is not a dribble when a player stands still and holds the ball and touches it to the floor once or more than once."

So the player can, while holding the ball, touch it to the floor, without dribbling. I saw a kid, in a pick-up game, set the ball on the floor and take his hands off of it as part of a really pathetic shot fake. He then picked the ball back up and dribbled. Violation?

We're not likely to see this in a real game, but...
bard,
I've got a violation, not when the ball is released, not when it is retouched, but when/if it is picked up and dribbled.

Dribble may start with release of ball to floor.
Dribble ends with two hands on ball.
Number of steps between starting and ending is irrelevant.

mick
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Old Wed Nov 20, 2002, 10:53am
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I agree with Mick. Setting the ball on the floor and picking it up looks like a dribble to me, so the start of the second dribble is a violation. I realize there's room for a difference of opinion, but consider this: the only time I can imagine anyone attempting a showboat play like this is in a blowout game, and a hot dog play like that might lead to a some rough play by a team that doesn't appreciate being made to look like the Washington Generals. Call the violation and don't risk any nonsense.
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Old Wed Nov 20, 2002, 11:04am
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Quote:
Originally posted by stan-MI
Call the violation and don't risk any nonsense.
Stan,
Good like with your HUGE district game tonight!


(FWIW - Stan plays with the Big Girls.)
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Old Wed Nov 20, 2002, 12:39pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by stan-MI
I agree with Mick. Setting the ball on the floor and picking it up looks like a dribble to me, so the start of the second dribble is a violation.
I disagree about it being a dribble. The case of the player sitting on the floor comes to mind. It is a travel for that player to place the ball on the floor, stand up, and pick up the ball. Yet, that player may legally start a dribble and stand up. So, placing the ball on the floor and picking it up is not a dribble.

Now, consider the exceptions to the traveling rule where a player tosses the ball over the head of an opponent and catches the ball before dribbling the ball to the floor. That is considered traveling...the player is considered to be "virtually" holding the ball. If he tosses the ball up while standing stationary, nothing. I believe these situations are analogous to the one at hand. The player deliberately releases the ball but has done so while still in full control. If the pivot foot moves in the meantime, it is a travel. If the pivot foot doesn't move, nothing.
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Old Wed Nov 20, 2002, 05:38pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust
Quote:
Originally posted by stan-MI
I agree with Mick. Setting the ball on the floor and picking it up looks like a dribble to me, so the start of the second dribble is a violation.
I disagree about it being a dribble. The case of the player sitting on the floor comes to mind. It is a travel for that player to place the ball on the floor, stand up, and pick up the ball. Yet, that player may legally start a dribble and stand up. So, placing the ball on the floor and picking it up is not a dribble.

Now, consider the exceptions to the traveling rule where a player tosses the ball over the head of an opponent and catches the ball before dribbling the ball to the floor. That is considered traveling...the player is considered to be "virtually" holding the ball. If he tosses the ball up while standing stationary, nothing. I believe these situations are analogous to the one at hand. The player deliberately releases the ball but has done so while still in full control. If the pivot foot moves in the meantime, it is a travel. If the pivot foot doesn't move, nothing.
Camron,
Your cases are fine, but are not the same.
In your cases, you have taken the "Floor" out of consideration, and that creates "a whole nother smoke".
mick
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Old Wed Nov 20, 2002, 07:59pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust
Quote:
Originally posted by stan-MI
I agree with Mick. Setting the ball on the floor and picking it up looks like a dribble to me, so the start of the second dribble is a violation.
I disagree about it being a dribble. The case of the player sitting on the floor comes to mind. It is a travel for that player to place the ball on the floor, stand up, and pick up the ball. Yet, that player may legally start a dribble and stand up. So, placing the ball on the floor and picking it up is not a dribble.

Now, consider the exceptions to the traveling rule where a player tosses the ball over the head of an opponent and catches the ball before dribbling the ball to the floor. That is considered traveling...the player is considered to be "virtually" holding the ball. If he tosses the ball up while standing stationary, nothing. I believe these situations are analogous to the one at hand. The player deliberately releases the ball but has done so while still in full control. If the pivot foot moves in the meantime, it is a travel. If the pivot foot doesn't move, nothing.
Camron,
Your cases are fine, but are not the same.
In your cases, you have taken the "Floor" out of consideration, and that creates "a whole nother smoke".
mick
There is nothing about the dribble rule that allows this to be the start of a dribble. It wasn't pushed, batted, or thrown to the floor. The examples I gave were the only cases we have regarding a player who has deliberately released the ball that was not a dribble, pass, or shot. In both cases, the player was treated as if they were holding the ball even though it was out of their hands.
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Old Wed Nov 20, 2002, 08:07pm
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what if?

player catches pass in front court, defense drops
into paint, player then places ball on floor, lifts shorts
picks up ball, starts dribble? hope it never happens, but what do we have?
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Old Wed Nov 20, 2002, 11:20pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust
Quote:
Originally posted by stan-MI
I agree with Mick. Setting the ball on the floor and picking it up looks like a dribble to me, so the start of the second dribble is a violation.
I disagree about it being a dribble. The case of the player sitting on the floor comes to mind. It is a travel for that player to place the ball on the floor, stand up, and pick up the ball. Yet, that player may legally start a dribble and stand up. So, placing the ball on the floor and picking it up is not a dribble.

Now, consider the exceptions to the traveling rule where a player tosses the ball over the head of an opponent and catches the ball before dribbling the ball to the floor. That is considered traveling...the player is considered to be "virtually" holding the ball. If he tosses the ball up while standing stationary, nothing. I believe these situations are analogous to the one at hand. The player deliberately releases the ball but has done so while still in full control. If the pivot foot moves in the meantime, it is a travel. If the pivot foot doesn't move, nothing.
Camron,
Your cases are fine, but are not the same.
In your cases, you have taken the "Floor" out of consideration, and that creates "a whole nother smoke".
mick
There is nothing about the dribble rule that allows this to be the start of a dribble. It wasn't pushed, batted, or thrown to the floor. The examples I gave were the only cases we have regarding a player who has deliberately released the ball that was not a dribble, pass, or shot. In both cases, the player was treated as if they were holding the ball even though it was out of their hands.
Holding the ball while it is out of the hands and on the floor, must be Copperfield.
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Old Thu Nov 21, 2002, 02:13am
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Cameron,
I have never heard of this "virtually holding" concept. Although, it, like most of what you write on this board, is rather interesting.
I have always thought that the reasoning behind why the play in which a player places the ball on the floor, gets up from the floor, and then picks up the ball is considered a travel was because the rules committee felt that this was a deliberate attempt to circumvent the traveling rule--so they put it into the casebook. 4.43.5B
I have to believe that if the player is upright and holding the ball, the attempting to avoid a rule rationale would not be a factor, and thus, placing it on the floor and letting go would constitute the start of a dribble. I must say that, in my mind, this maneuver qualifies as pushing the ball to the floor. It certainly wasn't lifted to the floor, and if it didn't bounce, then it wasn't dropped either. That leaves pushed.
My ruling is double dribble violation, if the player picks the ball back up and dribbles.
Otherwise, a technical for taunting should be considered depending on the score and situation.
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