Coaches don't know the rules?

[Mark Padgett]

The only thing I don't understand about this topic is why there's a question mark at the end of the title of this thread. It's a statement, not a question.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by Mark Padgett

The only thing I don't understand about this topic is why there's a question mark at the end of the title of this thread. It's a statement, not a question.

OP dropped the "Are there any".

[chartrusepengui]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

OP dropped the "Are there any".

And then forget a period and add exclamtion !!!!!!!!!!!

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

The only coaches T for misbehavior I have given this year was over this play. He kept arguing that they didn't have control. I explained that his team still had team control. He then told me I didn't know what I was talking about, so I said we are done discussing it and walked away. :30 later he wanted an explanation for a no call by my partner. Since I was by the bench, I explained what I saw and what I thought happened and he said "You still don't know what you're talking about."

WHACK!

Ignats75,
You were right to Whack, BUT once again, the call ALMOST ALWAYS (Coach Bill and I would be in the 10% or less of coaches who know/knew this rule) generates heartache.

On the topic of getting calls reversed, typically, the only time I would get calls overturned would be if EITHER the officials made a ruling error (counting a basket while calling a player control foul, for example) OR on a ball tipped out of bounds (if I thought that the official's partner had a good view, I would ask the calling official if he would be willing to ask for help).

I had more than one FTLT NOT called, but I would only mention FTLT. If they didn't know what I was talking about, I knew there was no chance of the officials getting the call right.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by referee99

Boys JV game last night. Team A ball in their front court, passing among teammates. Ball tipped by B1... going out of bounds... B2 bats ball towards Team B basket. Ball is deflected off of A1 (while still in Front court) and goes into Team A's back court. A1 then retrieves in the back court. Official (me) calls backcourt violation.

Coach and fans go crazy. Everyone saw the bat of the ball by B2. Coach wants answers. I tell him I'll explain it later.

At halftime, discuss the play with partner, the Var official who was watching, and the 2nd Var official that didn't see it but was in the office. Partner and Var witness are trying to sort out why it was backcourt violation. They are not quite getting it. I sum it up for them: "Team control. Last to touch in FC, first to touch in BC." Strangely, they are still a bit confused... one mentions that the coach was pretty adamant.

I suggest that the coach doesn't know the rules here... and mention that, "Look, if we (I guess that I was implying "you guys"), with all of our training and rules knowledge/study are sitting here trying to sort this play out, how the heck is a coach supposed to know this?"

referee99:

The only thing wrong that I read in your post was the punctuation in the title of the thread. The title should NOT have ended with a ?, but should have ended with a:

!!!!!!

MTD, Sr.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, this call (LTFT backcourt violation) creates a HUGE game management problem EVERY TIME. 90+% of the varsity high school coaches don't know it -- I don't even want to venture a guess at the percentage for sub-varsity, middle school or lower level coaches. Parents and players -- FORGET ABOUT IT!!!

If average people not understanding something simple was a valid rationale for a rule change then 95% of the rule book would end up being changed.

[MisterV]

I am an 8th grade girls coach. I love to monitor these boards because I don't want to be one of those coaches who doesn't know a rule, then says something stupid. Anyway, I did not know the LTFT rule until I read about it here. I tucked that little tidbit of information away, thinking it would probably never come up, but if it did, I would be ready.

The other day, my team was playing defense when one of my players knocked the ball away from an offensive player. The ball rolled right off of the other girl's leg and bounced into backcourt. The other girl ran back and picked it up. No whistle.

At the next dead ball I asked the ref why wasn't that a last to touch, first to touch situation. He looked at me like I was crazy. I sat back down and thought that either I still was botching this rule, or he had never heard of it.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by MisterV

I am an 8th grade girls coach. I love to monitor these boards because I don't want to be one of those coaches who doesn't know a rule, then says something stupid. Anyway, I did not know the LTFT rule until I read about it here. I tucked that little tidbit of information away, thinking it would probably never come up, but if it did, I would be ready.

The other day, my team was playing defense when one of my players knocked the ball away from an offensive player. The ball rolled right off of the other girl's leg and bounced into backcourt. The other girl ran back and picked it up. No whistle.

At the next dead ball I asked the ref why wasn't that a last to touch, first to touch situation. He looked at me like I was crazy. I sat back down and thought that either I still was botching this rule, or he had never heard of it.

Originally Posted by LDUB

If average people not understanding something simple was a valid rationale for a rule change then 95% of the rule book would end up being changed.

LDUB,
In the case of LTFT we are NOT talking about average people not understanding the rule -- we are talking about COACHES AND OFFICIALS (see MisterV above, for an example).

The "average person" understands the majority of the Rules Book -- three points for a field goal outside the 3-point arc, 2 points for a field goal inside, 1 point for a FT, five individual fouls before disqualification, seven fouls and shoot 1+1, etc.

They do not understand the nuances of many rules (exactly when a closely guarded count starts/stops, when 3-seconds starts/stops countwise, requirements for maintaining a Legal Guarding Position, etc.).

I advocate changing a very limited number of rules that are currently on the books. One of them is the LTFT back court violation. I feel this way for multiple reasons:
1. I don't think that the rule is consistent with the purpose of the division line in the first place,
2. This situation is a call that the vast majority of coaches do not understand (and therefore cannot teach players how to handle it), AND
3. It nearly ALWAYS leads to a poor outcome during a game.

I fully understand WHY the rule is there, and how to implement it, but I disagree with the current implementation for the above reasons.

[Bryant5493]

A little off-topic, but anyway... yesterday, I was keeping the score clock for a youth basketball game. The head coach of the home team asked me a question (or made a comment). He said that since the "bonus" light was on the guest side, that meant his team (the home team) should be shooting the one-and-one. I said to myself, "What?" Then I explained to him that if his team were in the one-and-one, the "bonus" light would be on on his side of the scoreboard, not the guest's side.


Be well,

Bryant

[referee99]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Why later? Why not now?

7th grade rec league game yesterday... defender hits ball off of A1 in Team A's front court, A2 retrieves in the backcourt.

Coach get up hoppin' (look at him go!), but I shut him down with an emphatic (almost like it was rehearsed) "Team Control - Last to touch, First to touch!"

It helps to have that one in the holster.

[DonInKansas]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

Rule Change Suggestion: Once ball is tipped by the defense, the division line "disappears" until the offense has PLAYER CONTROL and BOTH FEET in the FRONT COURT, again. A back court count would be started WHEN THE TEAM GAINS PLAYER CONTROL IN THE BACKCOURT (as opposed to starting the count as soon as the ball goes into the back court as the rule is today).

The rule would match 90+% of the coaches' understanding of the rule anyway.

Why should we change this rule just because coaches don't understand it? It's penalizing good defense.

In my eyes, it's just like OOB. If you're the last to touch in the FC (offensively), the division line is like OOB for you.

[zm1283]

I don't know why it would need to be changed. It's not my problem that some coaches don't read certain rules and understand them fully.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by DonInKansas

Why should we change this rule just because coaches don't understand it? It's penalizing good defense.

In my eyes, it's just like OOB. If you're the last to touch in the FC (offensively), the division line is like OOB for you.

There are many other rules that could be put in place to award good defense. Why not give the defense the ball every time they deflect a pass instead of only rewarding them with the ball when they deflect it off of the offense? That would be awarding "good defense." Two scenarios:
1. The defender getting a hand on the ball, gets LUCKY enough to have the ball hit the offensive player's foot and roll to the back court,
2. The defender bats the ball off of the defender's foot, but the ball happens to roll laterally across the court -- not in the back court.

Reward 1. with the ball, sorry, nothing for 2. How exactly is that a justifiable way of rewarding the defense?

Two more scenarios:
1. Defender gets hand completely into passing lane and deflects the ball completely into the back court and offensive player goes into the back court and retrieves the ball,
2. Defender just barely gets a hand on the pass causing the ball to glance every-so-slightly off of the offensive player's hand into the back court resulting in a LTFT back court violation.

No convincing me that the second defender made a better defensive play than the first. Once again, if you are really interested in rewarding good defense, why not make scenario 1 here a back court violation?

Once again, the vast majority of coaches and players agree that this is a bad rule based on their reaction to it virtually EVERY TIME. It is only a good rule for the official who wants to prove to the coaches and players that he/she knows all of the rules.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

1)Once again, the vast majority of coaches and players agree that this is a bad rule based on their reaction to it virtually EVERY TIME.

2) It is only a good rule for the official who wants to prove to the coaches and players that he/she knows all of the rules.

1) Then get the coaches and players to try and get the rule changed. It's got nothing to do with the officials. The officials are calling the play correcly, by rule. Whatinthehell different than that do you want? If the rulesmakers had agreed with your little fantasy, they would have changed the rule years ago.

2) Another stoopid statement imo. It's completely irrelevant whether it's a "good" rule or a "bad" rule, or whether any official might agree or disagree with it. The bottom line is that it's a rule. And officials have to call a game by the rules, whether we like 'em or not. In this particular case, an official better damn-well try to show that he/she knows the appropriate rule. It's our job to call it BY that rule.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Bryant5493

I explained to him that if his team were in the one-and-one, the "bonus" light would be on on his side of the scoreboard, not the guest's side.

Here in the Constitution State, prep schools wear dark colored jerseys for home games, and white jerseys for road games. I only do a few prep school games each season, and I've been fooled by a guest/home/bonus/scoreboard more than once. Now if I could only find my keys?