Coaches don't know the rules?

[referee99]

Boys JV game last night. Team A ball in their front court, passing among teammates. Ball tipped by B1... going out of bounds... B2 bats ball towards Team B basket. Ball is deflected off of A1 (while still in Front court) and goes into Team A's back court. A1 then retrieves in the back court. Official (me) calls backcourt violation.

Coach and fans go crazy. Everyone saw the bat of the ball by B2. Coach wants answers. I tell him I'll explain it later.

At halftime, discuss the play with partner, the Var official who was watching, and the 2nd Var official that didn't see it but was in the office. Partner and Var witness are trying to sort out why it was backcourt violation. They are not quite getting it. I sum it up for them: "Team control. Last to touch in FC, first to touch in BC." Strangely, they are still a bit confused... one mentions that the coach was pretty adamant.

I suggest that the coach doesn't know the rules here... and mention that, "Look, if we (I guess that I was implying "you guys"), with all of our training and rules knowledge/study are sitting here trying to sort this play out, how the heck is a coach supposed to know this?"

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by referee99

Coach and fans go crazy. Everyone saw the bat of the ball by B2. Coach wants answers. I tell him I'll explain it later.

Why later? Why not now?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Why later? Why not now?

Maybe the other team was ready to go for their frontcourt possession?

Myself, I will gladly give explanations, but rarely at the expense of slowing the game down. If the other team is RTG, then away we go. . .

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Maybe the other team was ready to go for their frontcourt possession?

Myself, I will gladly give explanations, but rarely at the expense of slowing the game down. If the other team is RTG, then away we go. . .

If you're close enough and there's time enough to tell the coach, "I'll explain later," then you're (generally) close enough and there's time enough to give a brief explanation.

[referee99]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Maybe the other team was ready to go for their frontcourt possession?

Myself, I will gladly give explanations, but rarely at the expense of slowing the game down. If the other team is RTG, then away we go. . .

Partner was near the division line with the ball and it was time to go.

I should have summed it up for the coach like I did for my bretheren at half time, but my thinker couldn't summarize that quickly.

[referee99]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

If you're close enough and there's time enough to tell the coach, "I'll explain later," then you're (generally) close enough and there's time enough to give a brief explanation.

... I would have. I just couldn't formulate succinct language on the spot, in response to his protestations about B2 having clearly batted the ball.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by referee99

Boys JV game last night. Team A ball in their front court, passing among teammates. Ball tipped by B1... going out of bounds... B2 bats ball towards Team B basket. Ball is deflected off of A1 (while still in Front court) and goes into Team A's back court. A1 then retrieves in the back court. Official (me) calls backcourt violation.

Coach and fans go crazy. Everyone saw the bat of the ball by B2. Coach wants answers. I tell him I'll explain it later.

At halftime, discuss the play with partner, the Var official who was watching, and the 2nd Var official that didn't see it but was in the office. Partner and Var witness are trying to sort out why it was backcourt violation. They are not quite getting it. I sum it up for them: "Team control. Last to touch in FC, first to touch in BC." Strangely, they are still a bit confused... one mentions that the coach was pretty adamant.

I suggest that they coach doesn't know the rules here... and mention that, "Look, if we (I guess that I was implying "you guys"), with all of our training and rules knowledge/study are sitting here trying to sort this play out, how the heck is a coach supposed to know this?"

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, this call (LTFT backcourt violation) creates a HUGE game management problem EVERY TIME. 90+% of the varsity high school coaches don't know it -- I don't even want to venture a guess at the percentage for sub-varsity, middle school or lower level coaches. Parents and players -- FORGET ABOUT IT!!!

Explaining why I called an illegal dribble/carry on a point guard may not merit much of an explanation. A LTFT backcourt violation is different. In the first case, the coaches know the rule, they may be questioning your judgment. In the case of LTFT, the assumption is that you somehow completely MISSED the tip by the defender.

I know that many (maybe even most) officials on this forum disagree with my view, but I still maintain that a rule change here is appropriate. Even if the rule may make sense (from an after-the-fact explanation standpoint), the fact remains that this call creates a furor EVERY TIME from the offending coach, players and spectators. Further, the other coach typically doesn't know the rule, anyway. A rule change here would not even be noticed by most of the coaches.

Rule Change Suggestion: Once ball is tipped by the defense, the division line "disappears" until the offense has PLAYER CONTROL and BOTH FEET in the FRONT COURT, again. A back court count would be started WHEN THE TEAM GAINS PLAYER CONTROL IN THE BACKCOURT (as opposed to starting the count as soon as the ball goes into the back court as the rule is today).

The rule would match 90+% of the coaches' understanding of the rule anyway.

Until that happens, EVERY TIME an official makes this call he/she will get an unfair butt-chewing by the coach, the players and the fans (and, even some officials, apparently). Included will be the wrecking of the flow of a good game.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by referee99

... I would have. I just couldn't formulate succinct language on the spot, in response to his protestations about B2 having clearly batted the ball.

My tongue got tied ealier this year, too, explaining a no-call to a varsity coach. I felt like an idiot.

[Coach Bill]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, this call (LTFT backcourt violation) creates a HUGE game management problem EVERY TIME. 90+% of the varsity high school coaches don't know it -- I don't even want to venture a guess at the percentage for sub-varsity, middle school or lower level coaches. Parents and players -- FORGET ABOUT IT!!!

Explaining why I called an illegal dribble/carry on a point guard may not merit much of an explanation. A LTFT backcourt violation is different. In the first case, the coaches know the rule, they may be questioning your judgment. In the case of LTFT, the assumption is that you somehow completely MISSED the tip by the defender.

I know that many (maybe even most) officials on this forum disagree with my view, but I still maintain that a rule change here is appropriate. Even if the rule may make sense (from an after-the-fact explanation standpoint), the fact remains that this call creates a furor EVERY TIME from the offending coach, players and spectators. Further, the other coach typically doesn't know the rule, anyway. A rule change here would not even be noticed by most of the coaches.

Rule Change Suggestion: Once ball is tipped by the defense, the division line "disappears" until the offense has PLAYER CONTROL and BOTH FEET in the FRONT COURT, again. A back court count would be started WHEN THE TEAM GAINS PLAYER CONTROL IN THE BACKCOURT (as opposed to starting the count as soon as the ball goes into the back court as the rule is today).

The rule would match 90+% of the coaches' understanding of the rule anyway.

Until that happens, EVERY TIME an official makes this call he/she will get an unfair butt-chewing by the coach, the players and the fans (and, even some officials, apparently). Included will be the wrecking of the flow of a good game.

I'm in the 10% that understand this rule, but like the guy that has to explain the rule to his partners/varsity officials, from my experience it's less than 50% of the refs that make this call correctly. When it goes against me, the official always gives me the "tipped-ball" mechanic. I always say "we tipped it, but they tipped it last in the frontcourt, could you ask your partner?". I've never been successful getting this called changed, but I'll keep trying.

[referee99]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

I'm in the 10% that understand this rule, but like the guy that has to explain the rule to his partners/varsity officials, from my experience it's less than 50% of the refs that make this call correctly. When it goes against me, the official always gives me the "tipped-ball" mechanic. I always say "we tipped it, but they tipped it last in the frontcourt, could you ask your partner?". I've never been successful getting this called changed, but I'll keep trying.

... and all other officials on this board who also coach:

I meant when I posted "coaches don't" that obviously some do, and especially those here.

I agree that a small percentage of coaches do, and too large a percentage of officials don't, and that the officials that don't, or the ones that do but can't communicate it effectively (me), don't help to educate the coaches that don't.

Now that is a sentence!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

I'm in the 10% that understand this rule, but like the guy that has to explain the rule to his partners/varsity officials, from my experience it's less than 50% of the refs that make this call correctly. When it goes against me, the official always gives me the "tipped-ball" mechanic. I always say "we tipped it, but they tipped it last in the frontcourt, could you ask your partner?". I've never been successful getting this called changed, but I'll keep trying.

Have you ever gotten any call changed?

[Man In Blue]

I have changed a call when I have went to my partner for help. Not very often. But if I am wrong it is better to get the call right. My ego can handel it.

With that said there are very few times where a partner can help it they are doing thier job!

[Coach Bill]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Have you ever gotten any call changed?

Rarely, but yes. Occasionally at my request someone's partner will talk him into going with an inadvertent whistle. For example, blowing the play dead on the ball hitting the side or top of the backboard.

[zm1283]

Had a GJH coach become pretty upset at my partner earlier this season for making this call. Team A had control in the frontcourt, B knocks it away, it hits A1 on the leg and A1 goes back and picks it up in the BC. He just couldn't understand why it was a BC violation.

I had one last night in a boys freshman game where Team A, who was in team control in the FC, got the ball knocked away by someone from B. A2 catches the ball on his butt in the FC and passes to A3 in the BC. I call it and their coach protests briefly until he figures out pretty quickly what happened.

[Ignats75]

The only coaches T for misbehavior I have given this year was over this play. He kept arguing that they didn't have control. I explained that his team still had team control. He then told me I didn't know what I was talking about, so I said we are done discussing it and walked away. :30 later he wanted an explanation for a no call by my partner. Since I was by the bench, I explained what I saw and what I thought happened and he said "You still don't know what you're talking about."

WHACK!