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Old Tue Dec 20, 2005, 01:54pm
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A slight intersting situation developed in one of my games last week. And another thread here piqued my memory.

Had an in-bounds about to occur. Kids comes back to "set a pick." Well, as we have all probably seen, the pick becomes arm placement into his abdomen and pushing the defender about 10 feet backwards.

I call the foul. We're in the bonus. I report and head to the other end to shoot free throws. My JV partner questions whether we should be shooting. I say "Yes. There is no Team Control during a throw-in. So we shoot. Had you even given him the ball yet?" (I'm not sure why I asked that last question it really has nothing to do with the situation - only shows that the ball had not been inbounded to someone on the court to establish Team Control)

The coach sees this little discussion and so he questions whether we should be shooting. I repeat my answer and say "So, yes, we shoot free throws." He asks me the same question again. I say "Yes." "Are you certain?" I say "Yes." He asks me again. I say "Absolutely!" and leave.

On further review of the situation, I formulated a more exciting response (one I'm glad I didn't give.) I would have liked to been quick witted enough to have said, "Look you Butthead. You are unwilling to spend the time yourself to learn the rules. Yet you are willing to stop a game and question my rules knowledge, repeatedly, in front of 500 fans creating a situation that makes me look the dummy. When really it is your laziness to learn the rules and apparently your inability to hear - because you have asked me the same question 4 times and I've given you the same answer 4 times, and yet here we are with me looking stupid as if pleading my case, as I expain some arcane technicality to you, seemingly justifying our next (likely judged by everyone else to be improper) action of shooting free throws." I guess it pays to be slow and dim-witted.

Given that many of you on this forum are not dim-witted and slow, how do you respond to coaches that have not learned the rules yet because of their position as coach they feel compelled to question your rules knowledge (infront of the fans/players/administrators)?


[Edited by DownTownTonyBrown on Dec 20th, 2005 at 02:26 PM]
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Old Tue Dec 20, 2005, 02:02pm
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"On further review of the situation, I formulated a more exciting response (one I'm glad I didn't give.) I would have liked to been quick witted enough to have said, "Look you Butthead. You are unwilling to spend the time yourself to learn the rules. Yet you are willing to stop a game and question my rules knowledge, repeatedly, in front of 500 fans creating a situation that make me look the dummy. When really it is your laziness to learn the rules and apparently your inability to hear - because you have asked me the same question 4 times and I've given you the same answer 4 times, and yet here we are with me looking stupid as if pleading my case, as I expain some arcane technicality to you, seemingly justifying our next (likely judged by everyone else to be improper) action of shooting free throws." I guess it pays to be slow and dim-witted.

Given that many of you on this forum are not dim-witted and slow, how do you respond to coaches that have not learned the rules yet because of their position as coach they feel compelled to question your rules knowledge (infront of the fans/players/administrators)?"

I'd say that's a pretty good one.
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Old Tue Dec 20, 2005, 02:23pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
Given that many of you on this forum are not dim-witted and slow, how do you respond to coaches that have not learned the rules yet because of their position as coach they feel compelled to question your rules knowledge (infront of the fans/players/administrators)?
My dim-witted and slow response to your coach would have been to answer him exactly once & walk away.
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Old Tue Dec 20, 2005, 02:27pm
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I expect more rules knowledge from officials than from coaches. I'd be more disappointed in your partner than the coach. Until the NFHS requires all coaches to take the rules test, I don't think many of them will be cracking the books and studying the rules. It's too bad, but it seems to be the way it is.

Z
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Old Tue Dec 20, 2005, 02:33pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
"Look you Butthead. You are unwilling to spend the time yourself to learn the rules. Yet you are willing to stop a game and question my rules knowledge, repeatedly, in front of 500 fans creating a situation that make me look the dummy. When really it is your laziness to learn the rules and apparently your inability to hear - because you have asked me the same question 4 times and I've given you the same answer 4 times, and yet here we are with me looking stupid as if pleading my case, as I expain some arcane technicality to you, seemingly justifying our next (likely judged by everyone else to be improper) action of shooting free throws."
You need to trim it down a little; it's too long. Something like, "Look, Butthead, you're an idiot and I'm not."

Well, ok, maybe that's not wise, until your last year of officiating. In the meantime, keep it short, simple, and one-time only. In your play, maybe a simple "We're shooting FT's because there's no team control on a throw-in." If they continue to argue, there's always the ignore, stop sign, penalize phases. You've given your answer, they can continue to question at their own peril.
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Old Tue Dec 20, 2005, 02:41pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
Given that many of you on this forum are not dim-witted and slow, how do you respond to coaches that have not learned the rules yet because of their position as coach they feel compelled to question your rules knowledge (infront of the fans/players/administrators)?
My dim-witted and slow response to your coach would have been to answer him exactly once & walk away.
It must have been your other 5665 responses that I figured were not slow or dim-witted.

Sometimes it takes a lot to get you guys going.
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Old Tue Dec 20, 2005, 02:55pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref

My dim-witted and slow response to your coach would have been to answer him exactly once & walk away.
[/B]
Agreed, only I might throw in a couple seconds of the the good old "fish-eye" stare for good measure.......
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Old Tue Dec 20, 2005, 03:06pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
I say "Yes. There is no Team Control during a throw-in. So we shoot. Had you even given him the ball yet?" (I'm not sure why I asked that last question it really has nothing to do with the situation
This question has *everything* to do with the situation.

If the ball hadn't been given to the inbounder yet (or made available to him if he wouldn't take it), then the ball wasn't live. The contact you saw would have been ignored, unless it was intentional or flagrant, and then we'd have a T.

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Old Tue Dec 20, 2005, 03:08pm
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"Coach, Team Control is in Rule 4, Section 12".

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Old Tue Dec 20, 2005, 03:18pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
Given that many of you on this forum are not dim-witted and slow, how do you respond to coaches that have not learned the rules yet because of their position as coach they feel compelled to question your rules knowledge (infront of the fans/players/administrators)?
My dim-witted and slow response to your coach would have been to answer him exactly once & walk away.
And then, if his questioning continues, in a louder tone of voice as I am walking the other direction, WHACK!!
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Old Tue Dec 20, 2005, 03:48pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins
Quote:
Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
I say "Yes. There is no Team Control during a throw-in. So we shoot. Had you even given him the ball yet?" (I'm not sure why I asked that last question it really has nothing to do with the situation
This question has *everything* to do with the situation.

If the ball hadn't been given to the inbounder yet (or made available to him if he wouldn't take it), then the ball wasn't live. The contact you saw would have been ignored, unless it was intentional or flagrant, and then we'd have a T.

As usual Bob, you are absolutely correct.

When I made the call (because it was pretty blatant), I assumed that the ball had been given to the thrower. Aftwards, after the game in fact, when discussing the play was when my partner tells me that the ball had not yet been put in the thrower's hands (not sure of the validity of his statement but this is what he said a half hour later). He had blown his whistle to start play and I saw that he was beginning to hand the ball to the thrower when my linesman blocker, I mean screener, began shoving. And I blew my whistle (2-3 seconds after my partner's whistle).

So given that I had seen my partner lean towards the thrower and with and outstretched arm, offering the ball, WAS THE CALL OKAY? The penalty for an intentional (as intentional as the act was) technical foul seems like too much but may have been "technically" correct.

I know at times I have stepped in on players during one of these pre-throwin scrums and waited for the action to stop and then said "Are you guys done?" - ignored it. Given that I wasn't in control of the throw-in timing for this situation, I blew my whistle. I'll use a little more thought, and maybe another half-second delay next time.

Of course Bob, are you saying that perhaps the coach really did know the rule? I didn't think so.
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Old Wed Dec 21, 2005, 03:17am
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Either way, shooting FTs is correct. If the ball was live, shoot the bonus. If it was dead, shoot 2FTs for the intentional technical foul.

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