Coaches don't know the rules?

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by referee99

Boys JV game last night. Team A ball in their front court, passing among teammates. Ball tipped by B1... going out of bounds... B2 bats ball towards Team B basket. Ball is deflected off of A1 (while still in Front court) and goes into Team A's back court. A1 then retrieves in the back court. Official (me) calls backcourt violation.

Coach and fans go crazy. Everyone saw the bat of the ball by B2. Coach wants answers. I tell him I'll explain it later.

At halftime, discuss the play with partner, the Var official who was watching, and the 2nd Var official that didn't see it but was in the office. Partner and Var witness are trying to sort out why it was backcourt violation. They are not quite getting it. I sum it up for them: "Team control. Last to touch in FC, first to touch in BC." Strangely, they are still a bit confused... one mentions that the coach was pretty adamant.

I suggest that they coach doesn't know the rules here... and mention that, "Look, if we (I guess that I was implying "you guys"), with all of our training and rules knowledge/study are sitting here trying to sort this play out, how the heck is a coach supposed to know this?"

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, this call (LTFT backcourt violation) creates a HUGE game management problem EVERY TIME. 90+% of the varsity high school coaches don't know it -- I don't even want to venture a guess at the percentage for sub-varsity, middle school or lower level coaches. Parents and players -- FORGET ABOUT IT!!!

Explaining why I called an illegal dribble/carry on a point guard may not merit much of an explanation. A LTFT backcourt violation is different. In the first case, the coaches know the rule, they may be questioning your judgment. In the case of LTFT, the assumption is that you somehow completely MISSED the tip by the defender.

I know that many (maybe even most) officials on this forum disagree with my view, but I still maintain that a rule change here is appropriate. Even if the rule may make sense (from an after-the-fact explanation standpoint), the fact remains that this call creates a furor EVERY TIME from the offending coach, players and spectators. Further, the other coach typically doesn't know the rule, anyway. A rule change here would not even be noticed by most of the coaches.

Rule Change Suggestion: Once ball is tipped by the defense, the division line "disappears" until the offense has PLAYER CONTROL and BOTH FEET in the FRONT COURT, again. A back court count would be started WHEN THE TEAM GAINS PLAYER CONTROL IN THE BACKCOURT (as opposed to starting the count as soon as the ball goes into the back court as the rule is today).

The rule would match 90+% of the coaches' understanding of the rule anyway.

Until that happens, EVERY TIME an official makes this call he/she will get an unfair butt-chewing by the coach, the players and the fans (and, even some officials, apparently). Included will be the wrecking of the flow of a good game.

[Coach Bill]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, this call (LTFT backcourt violation) creates a HUGE game management problem EVERY TIME. 90+% of the varsity high school coaches don't know it -- I don't even want to venture a guess at the percentage for sub-varsity, middle school or lower level coaches. Parents and players -- FORGET ABOUT IT!!!

Explaining why I called an illegal dribble/carry on a point guard may not merit much of an explanation. A LTFT backcourt violation is different. In the first case, the coaches know the rule, they may be questioning your judgment. In the case of LTFT, the assumption is that you somehow completely MISSED the tip by the defender.

I know that many (maybe even most) officials on this forum disagree with my view, but I still maintain that a rule change here is appropriate. Even if the rule may make sense (from an after-the-fact explanation standpoint), the fact remains that this call creates a furor EVERY TIME from the offending coach, players and spectators. Further, the other coach typically doesn't know the rule, anyway. A rule change here would not even be noticed by most of the coaches.

Rule Change Suggestion: Once ball is tipped by the defense, the division line "disappears" until the offense has PLAYER CONTROL and BOTH FEET in the FRONT COURT, again. A back court count would be started WHEN THE TEAM GAINS PLAYER CONTROL IN THE BACKCOURT (as opposed to starting the count as soon as the ball goes into the back court as the rule is today).

The rule would match 90+% of the coaches' understanding of the rule anyway.

Until that happens, EVERY TIME an official makes this call he/she will get an unfair butt-chewing by the coach, the players and the fans (and, even some officials, apparently). Included will be the wrecking of the flow of a good game.

I'm in the 10% that understand this rule, but like the guy that has to explain the rule to his partners/varsity officials, from my experience it's less than 50% of the refs that make this call correctly. When it goes against me, the official always gives me the "tipped-ball" mechanic. I always say "we tipped it, but they tipped it last in the frontcourt, could you ask your partner?". I've never been successful getting this called changed, but I'll keep trying.

[referee99]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

I'm in the 10% that understand this rule, but like the guy that has to explain the rule to his partners/varsity officials, from my experience it's less than 50% of the refs that make this call correctly. When it goes against me, the official always gives me the "tipped-ball" mechanic. I always say "we tipped it, but they tipped it last in the frontcourt, could you ask your partner?". I've never been successful getting this called changed, but I'll keep trying.

... and all other officials on this board who also coach:

I meant when I posted "coaches don't" that obviously some do, and especially those here.

I agree that a small percentage of coaches do, and too large a percentage of officials don't, and that the officials that don't, or the ones that do but can't communicate it effectively (me), don't help to educate the coaches that don't.

Now that is a sentence!

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Coach Bill

I'm in the 10% that understand this rule, but like the guy that has to explain the rule to his partners/varsity officials, from my experience it's less than 50% of the refs that make this call correctly. When it goes against me, the official always gives me the "tipped-ball" mechanic. I always say "we tipped it, but they tipped it last in the frontcourt, could you ask your partner?". I've never been successful getting this called changed, but I'll keep trying.

Have you ever gotten any call changed?

[Man In Blue]

I have changed a call when I have went to my partner for help. Not very often. But if I am wrong it is better to get the call right. My ego can handel it.

With that said there are very few times where a partner can help it they are doing thier job!

[Coach Bill]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Have you ever gotten any call changed?

Rarely, but yes. Occasionally at my request someone's partner will talk him into going with an inadvertent whistle. For example, blowing the play dead on the ball hitting the side or top of the backboard.

[zm1283]

Had a GJH coach become pretty upset at my partner earlier this season for making this call. Team A had control in the frontcourt, B knocks it away, it hits A1 on the leg and A1 goes back and picks it up in the BC. He just couldn't understand why it was a BC violation.

I had one last night in a boys freshman game where Team A, who was in team control in the FC, got the ball knocked away by someone from B. A2 catches the ball on his butt in the FC and passes to A3 in the BC. I call it and their coach protests briefly until he figures out pretty quickly what happened.

[Ignats75]

The only coaches T for misbehavior I have given this year was over this play. He kept arguing that they didn't have control. I explained that his team still had team control. He then told me I didn't know what I was talking about, so I said we are done discussing it and walked away. :30 later he wanted an explanation for a no call by my partner. Since I was by the bench, I explained what I saw and what I thought happened and he said "You still don't know what you're talking about."

WHACK!

[Mark Padgett]

The only thing I don't understand about this topic is why there's a question mark at the end of the title of this thread. It's a statement, not a question.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

The only coaches T for misbehavior I have given this year was over this play. He kept arguing that they didn't have control. I explained that his team still had team control. He then told me I didn't know what I was talking about, so I said we are done discussing it and walked away. :30 later he wanted an explanation for a no call by my partner. Since I was by the bench, I explained what I saw and what I thought happened and he said "You still don't know what you're talking about."

WHACK!

Ignats75,
You were right to Whack, BUT once again, the call ALMOST ALWAYS (Coach Bill and I would be in the 10% or less of coaches who know/knew this rule) generates heartache.

On the topic of getting calls reversed, typically, the only time I would get calls overturned would be if EITHER the officials made a ruling error (counting a basket while calling a player control foul, for example) OR on a ball tipped out of bounds (if I thought that the official's partner had a good view, I would ask the calling official if he would be willing to ask for help).

I had more than one FTLT NOT called, but I would only mention FTLT. If they didn't know what I was talking about, I knew there was no chance of the officials getting the call right.

[Bryant5493]

A little off-topic, but anyway... yesterday, I was keeping the score clock for a youth basketball game. The head coach of the home team asked me a question (or made a comment). He said that since the "bonus" light was on the guest side, that meant his team (the home team) should be shooting the one-and-one. I said to myself, "What?" Then I explained to him that if his team were in the one-and-one, the "bonus" light would be on on his side of the scoreboard, not the guest's side.


Be well,

Bryant

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, this call (LTFT backcourt violation) creates a HUGE game management problem EVERY TIME. 90+% of the varsity high school coaches don't know it -- I don't even want to venture a guess at the percentage for sub-varsity, middle school or lower level coaches. Parents and players -- FORGET ABOUT IT!!!

If average people not understanding something simple was a valid rationale for a rule change then 95% of the rule book would end up being changed.

[MisterV]

I am an 8th grade girls coach. I love to monitor these boards because I don't want to be one of those coaches who doesn't know a rule, then says something stupid. Anyway, I did not know the LTFT rule until I read about it here. I tucked that little tidbit of information away, thinking it would probably never come up, but if it did, I would be ready.

The other day, my team was playing defense when one of my players knocked the ball away from an offensive player. The ball rolled right off of the other girl's leg and bounced into backcourt. The other girl ran back and picked it up. No whistle.

At the next dead ball I asked the ref why wasn't that a last to touch, first to touch situation. He looked at me like I was crazy. I sat back down and thought that either I still was botching this rule, or he had never heard of it.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by MisterV

I am an 8th grade girls coach. I love to monitor these boards because I don't want to be one of those coaches who doesn't know a rule, then says something stupid. Anyway, I did not know the LTFT rule until I read about it here. I tucked that little tidbit of information away, thinking it would probably never come up, but if it did, I would be ready.

The other day, my team was playing defense when one of my players knocked the ball away from an offensive player. The ball rolled right off of the other girl's leg and bounced into backcourt. The other girl ran back and picked it up. No whistle.

At the next dead ball I asked the ref why wasn't that a last to touch, first to touch situation. He looked at me like I was crazy. I sat back down and thought that either I still was botching this rule, or he had never heard of it.

Originally Posted by LDUB

If average people not understanding something simple was a valid rationale for a rule change then 95% of the rule book would end up being changed.

LDUB,
In the case of LTFT we are NOT talking about average people not understanding the rule -- we are talking about COACHES AND OFFICIALS (see MisterV above, for an example).

The "average person" understands the majority of the Rules Book -- three points for a field goal outside the 3-point arc, 2 points for a field goal inside, 1 point for a FT, five individual fouls before disqualification, seven fouls and shoot 1+1, etc.

They do not understand the nuances of many rules (exactly when a closely guarded count starts/stops, when 3-seconds starts/stops countwise, requirements for maintaining a Legal Guarding Position, etc.).

I advocate changing a very limited number of rules that are currently on the books. One of them is the LTFT back court violation. I feel this way for multiple reasons:
1. I don't think that the rule is consistent with the purpose of the division line in the first place,
2. This situation is a call that the vast majority of coaches do not understand (and therefore cannot teach players how to handle it), AND
3. It nearly ALWAYS leads to a poor outcome during a game.

I fully understand WHY the rule is there, and how to implement it, but I disagree with the current implementation for the above reasons.

[DonInKansas]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

Rule Change Suggestion: Once ball is tipped by the defense, the division line "disappears" until the offense has PLAYER CONTROL and BOTH FEET in the FRONT COURT, again. A back court count would be started WHEN THE TEAM GAINS PLAYER CONTROL IN THE BACKCOURT (as opposed to starting the count as soon as the ball goes into the back court as the rule is today).

The rule would match 90+% of the coaches' understanding of the rule anyway.

Why should we change this rule just because coaches don't understand it? It's penalizing good defense.

In my eyes, it's just like OOB. If you're the last to touch in the FC (offensively), the division line is like OOB for you.