illegal player

[daveg144]

I had a friend ask me about this one...

Girls varsity game, sometime during the 3rd quarter. Sub at the table (#40), during a dead ball, she is beckoned on to the court. She plays less than one minute, is replaced and she returns to her bench. Moments later, the table sounds the buzzer and informs the referee that #40 was not in the book. Her coach tells the referee that they had her name in the book but with the wrong number.

The crew is not sure if they can call a technical foul since the girl is no longer in the game. They all agree that she WAS in the game.

My books are at home. Is it a technical foul? Does it have to be called while she's in the game?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by daveg144

I had a friend ask me about this one...

Girls varsity game, sometime during the 3rd quarter. Sub at the table (#40), during a dead ball, she is beckoned on to the court. She plays less than one minute, is replaced and she returns to her bench. Moments later, the table sounds the buzzer and informs the referee that #40 was not in the book. Her coach tells the referee that they had her name in the book but with the wrong number.

The crew is not sure if they can call a technical foul since the girl is no longer in the game. They all agree that she WAS in the game.

My books are at home. Is it a technical foul? Does it have to be called while she's in the game?

Since she played the book must correctly reflect her information (name and number). Upon discovery that this information is incorrect, the book must be changed to make it correct. That would be done immediately upon learning of the problem, and that is the proper time to assess the penalty of a team technical foul.

[mbyron]

As Nevada says: the foul is not for her playing, but for changing the book. When you do that, assess the penalty.

[johnnyrao]

I don't have my rule book handy, so can anyone back this up with the appropriate rules? I thought the technical was assessed when the number was changed. Also, I would think in this case that the player is no longer aplayer, but is now bench personnel. That being the case, why can't the coach leave her on the bench and not change the #? As long as she does not play again, the number does not have to be changed. Or, since she already played, is Nevada correct and you make the scorekeeper change the # and then penalize it. Like I said, I'm not questioning the others posts, I just have no rule book handy so I would like to know how you would apply the rules to this situation. Thanks.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by johnnyrao

I don't have my rule book handy, so can anyone back this up with the appropriate rules?

There's nothihng specific (afaik). Some say that since the player was in the game, the book must be changed. Others say that as long as the player didn't score or foul, there's nothing to write down, so the book needn't be changed.

[johnnyrao]

Thanks Bob. Makes sense about scoring and fouling. I didn't think about that. If they had to mark the book then the number would need to be changed. Once again, another great lesson learned for me to cover this with the official scorekeeper. May prevent an ugly scene later on.

[eyezen]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

There's nothihng specific (afaik). Some say that since the player was in the game, the book must be changed. Others say that as long as the player didn't score or foul, there's nothing to write down, so the book needn't be changed.

But isn't there something that is checked when they "check-in" that denotes what players have entered the game and in what quarter?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by eyezen

But isn't there something that is checked when they "check-in" that denotes what players have entered the game and in what quarter?

I thought so, but we had one last night where it didn't get caught until the player committed a foul.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by eyezen

But isn't there something that is checked when they "check-in" that denotes what players have entered the game and in what quarter?

No, look at the example of a filled out score book from the NCAA. Check out State's players. You can see that only the starters for each half are marked. There are some players with stats for the game who have no marks indicating that they actually played.

http%3A%2F%2Fweb1.ncaa.org%2Fweb_files%2Fstats%2FS tats_Manuals%2FBasketball%2Fscorebook.pdf&ei=-hxySZ6IK57eNI3RyRw&usg=AFQjCNEZh2EGBkEY_HKeXSBQEHqSSEUByw&sig2=qcsIa5JZ5XNdcdy1zP4c8g

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

There's nothihng specific. Some say that since the player was in the game, the book must be changed. Others say that as long as the player didn't score or foul, there's nothing to write down, so the book needn't be changed.

I've been researching, and have been confused by, this situaiton since the beginning of the season, and I have to agree with you. Are you 100% sure that there is no direction from the NFHS here? Why hasn't the NFHS closed this loophole?

From my study guide:

Penalized when they occur, after ten minute time limit. The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize. A maximum of one technical foul per team regardless of the number of infractions for 2a, 3a, 3b, 3c, 4a:
a) A team shall not add a name to the team member list after the ten minute time limit. Team technical foul. When such a player legally enters the court, the player’s name, and number, must be entered into the scorebook.
b) A team shall not require the scorer to change a team member, or player, number in the scorebook (with exception), after the ten minute time limit. Team technical foul. If there is no request for change, or if a team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty.
c) A team shall not require a player to change to a number in the scorebook after the ten minute time limit. Team technical foul. A maximum of one team technical foul is charged regardless of the number of players, and substitutes, not wearing the number indicated in the scorebook. Each player must wear the number indicated in the scorebook, or change the scorebook number to that which the player is wearing. Any additional substitutes who become players and require the changing of the number indicated for them in the scorebook will not result in a penalty as the one maximum technical has already been charged to the team for this administrative infraction. If there is no request for change, or if the team member does not become a player, thus avoiding the change, there is no penalty.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

There's nothing specific. Some say that since the player was in the game, the book must be changed. Others say that as long as the player didn't score or foul, there's nothing to write down, so the book needn't be changed.

Third option: Others might say that once the player becomes bench personal, even if they scored, there isn't a need to write the name, or number, in the book until the next time the player tries to enter the game. They're not a player when they're on the bench.

The rule just isn't very clear here. I've been working on this for months. Hopefully Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. will read this post, and email his former girlfriend, Mary Struckhoff, NFHS Rulebook editor, who would be able to give us a definitive answer to this situation.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

There's nothihng specific (afaik). Some say that since the player was in the game, the book must be changed. Others say that as long as the player didn't score or foul, there's nothing to write down, so the book needn't be changed.

It could be clearer, but the Simplified & Illustrated book covers this.

2007-08 version
Top of page 26
"3-2-2; 10-1-2 A substitute reports to enter, but is wearing a number different than that listed for him in the scorebook. The coach informs the scorer that the substitute will not enter, thus avoiding the technical foul and penalty. Since no change had to be made by the scorer, no penalty is assessed."

One can logically conclude from this that if the substitute does enter the game (plays) that the scorer must change the book and so the penalty must be assessed. The above ruling from the NFHS makes it clear that the only thing that this team member need do in order to necessitate a penalty is to enter the game (participate). He is not required to score, foul, or otherwise record a statistic.

In addition to the above, Rule 2-11-1 requires the scorer to "keep a record of the names and numbers of players who are to start the game and of all substitutes who enter the game."

This record keeping is done in the scorebook. Every team member who enters needs to be properly recorded therein. The only team members for whom the name and number can be incorrect are those who do not participate.

[agr8zebra]

I concur with Nevada

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Rule 2-11-1 requires the scorer to "keep a record of the names and numbers of players who are to start the game and of all substitutes who enter the game.

I like this citation. It really has some teeth. Let's see what everybody else, especially bob jenkins, thinks about this?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

There's nothihng specific (afaik). Some say that since the player was in the game, the book must be changed. Others say that as long as the player didn't score or foul, there's nothing to write down, so the book needn't be changed.

I had this sitch this season and did not penalize b/c we (crew) didn't have knowledge that the player participated. Scorer did not notify us until after the player in question was back on the bench, scorer failed to check and annotate the book when player checked in.

Did we kick it? Maybe.