Foul on shot causes travel.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

Snaqs:

Don't be so quick with that response. NFHS, NCAA, and FIBA rules:

PLAY: A1 is dribbling toward Team A's basket. While both feet are in the air, A1 stops his dribble by gathering (with apologies to the NBA) the ball into both hands. In one continuous motion A1 lands on his left foot, then jumps off his left foot and lands on his right foot, then jumps off is right foot, and then releases the ball for a field goal attempt. The field goal attempt is successful.

QUESTION: If A1 is fouled at any point after he stopped his dribble and before he returns to the floor after releasing the ball for his field goal attepmt, has he be fouled in the act of shooting?

RULING: Yes. A1 was airborne three (3) different times during his field goal attempt. See NFHS Rules R4-S11-A1 and A2. The NCAA and FIBA rules concur.

MTD, Sr.

I'd have to see this play, but I don't picture a shooting motion that starts before the first landing in this case.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I'd have to see this play, but I don't picture a shooting motion that starts before the first landing in this case.

By rule, the shooting motion starts when as a player is gathering the ball for a layup; well before the first landing. Too many officials don't give them this, though.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

By rule, the shooting motion starts when as a player is gathering the ball for a layup; well before the first landing.

This is based on what?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is based on what?

This wording:

The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

[just another ref]

I think this is a stretch. A player may do anything after he "gathers the ball" at the end of a dribble. Also, MTD's play could be any kind of shot, not necessarily a layup. A player often shoots a fadeaway after a jump stop.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I think this is a stretch. A player may do anything after he "gathers the ball" at the end of a dribble. Also, MTD's play could be any kind of shot, not necessarily a layup. A player often shoots a fadeaway after a jump stop.

A player may do anything after he jumps for a shot, too, but that doesn't matter. See the whole play.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I'd have to see this play, but I don't picture a shooting motion that starts before the first landing in this case.

just another ref:

Look at it this way: What is the first thing, that a player who is dribbling the ball, have to do to shoot the ball? Stop his dribble. The stopping of the dribble is the start of the act of shooting.

Going back to my OP. While the illegal contact can occur very early in the "potential" act of shooting. Go ahead and sound your whistle when the contact occurs, but see the whole play. Why? If at any time after the illegal contact A1 passes the ball instead of releasing the ball for a field attempt the foul is a common foul and not a foul against a player in the act of shooting.

MTD, Sr.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

just another ref:

Look at it this way: What is the first thing, that a player who is dribbling the ball, have to do to shoot the ball? Stop his dribble. The stopping of the dribble is the start of the act of shooting.

not necessarily

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by just another ref

not necessarily

just another ref:

It is if he ends up shooting the ball, .

MTD, Sr.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

just another ref:

It is if he ends up shooting the ball, .

MTD, Sr.

A player may pick up his dribble and stand still for any period of time and then "end up shooting the ball."

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A player may pick up his dribble and stand still for any period of time and then "end up shooting the ball."

It's all about the habitual shooting motion, not just picking up your dribble. On a player shooting a layup, this starts early.

The player doing a jump stop could also start this motion on his way down as he gathers the ball for his shot.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A player may pick up his dribble and stand still for any period of time and then "end up shooting the ball."

Just Another Ref:

Read what Snaqs wrote in his post that precedes this one. If the play is continuous, yes, the stopping of the dribble does start the act of shooting. In your example it does not.

MTD, Sr.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

If at any time after the illegal contact A1 passes the ball instead of releasing the ball for a field attempt the foul is a common foul and not a foul against a player in the act of shooting.

Reference, please.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Reference, please.

Bob:

My statement refers to the play I described in my OP.

NFHS R4-S11-A2 states: "If an opponent fouls after a player has started a try for goal, he/she is permitted to complete the customary arm movement, and if pivoting or stepping when fouled, may complete the usual foot or body movement in any activity while holding the ball. These privileges are granted only when the usual throwing motion has started before the foul occurs and before the ball is in flight."

Going back to my play: If A1 releases the ball for a field goal attempt, anytime after he was fouled, then A1's attempt started when he stopped his dribble. If A1, passes the ball to A2 at anytime after he was fouled, then A1 was not fouled during the act of shooting. The definition of continuous motion does not imply a patient whistle but does imply that the official see the whole play. The official must recognize the foul but watch the whole play.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by fullor30

I think I know what you're trying to say, yet wording imho is not clear.

To say the stopping of the dribble is the start of the act of shooting by it self is erroneous. Secondly, we've all encountered a player attempting a try and by the force of the foul, alters their attempt and passes. It is an officials judgement whether or not he was in the act of shooting. No rule, just common sense.

fullor30:

1) You said: "To say the stopping of the dribble is the start of the act of shooting by it self is erroneous."

I don't think you understand the defintition of continuous motion. Go back and reread my posts in this thread. Not ever stoppage of a dribble is the start of the act of shooting but when it is part of one continuous act of play by one player it can be the start of the act of shooting.


2) You said: "We've all encountered a player attempting a try and by the force of the foul, alters their attempt and passes. It is an officials judgement whether or not he was in the act of shooting."

I do not disagree with you. That is why we are paid the big () dollars to officiate.


3) You said: "No rule, just common sense."

Lock your common sense in the car when you arrive at the game site. Use the rules and logic instead.

MTD, Sr.