Mind your own business?

[just another ref]

Did I do that poor a job of describing things? The point of this thread was not even about the failure to grant the time out. I was asking if anyone would call the T from the lead after the trail had granted the time out and was obviously not going to call one.

This all happened with about 3 minutes to go in a close game. Visitors set to inbound. Ball had not become live. Another thing which may or may not be significant. The coach made no TO signal whatsoever, in great contrast to many who jump up and down and wave frantically to attract the officials attention. This guy simply walked in a straight line toward the trail, yelling his request over and over.

I think some of the kids now actually do not even realize that they, too, can make the timeout request. Earlier that same day in a girls game, I'm trail. Point guard stops near the division line. Defense is packed in a zone. I saw the girl look toward the bench. I heard the coach say "Point," a couple of times. I turned to look and the coach was signaling the timeout. I realized afterward the coach was trying to get her player to point at her, so I would look and see the signal. Wouldn't it be easier to have the players be aware that they should also make the signal?

Back to the OP. I think most of us have agreed after numerous discussions that almost nothing is an automatic T. But if a coach is standing that close to the center of the court as the ball is about to be put in play, unless he is trying to tell me the building is on fire or something equally important, he probably has one coming.

[Adam]

This different than I pictured it. As Trail, I'd probably call the T on this. As Lead, I wouldn't call the T after the Trail had already granted the TO.

[Ignats75]

OK, let me understand this.

Crew has little or no game awareness as well as absolutely no hearing. Therefore coach cannot get a reasonably requested timeout, so you want to whack him? Exactly how many more games do you want to do for that assignor?

I'm not known as Mr T for nothing and even I wouldn't even begin to think about a T in that situation. No way am I whacking anyone in that situation. The most I would do is say, "Sorry coach, I'm married with six kids. I can't hear squat."

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Ignats75

Therefore coach cannot get a reasonably requested timeout, so you want to whack him?

A request by the coach is no longer reasonable when it comes from the center
of the court.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by just another ref

A request by the coach is no longer reasonable when it comes from the center
of the court.

just another ref:

Ignats is correct on this. While no wants to see a HC out on the court in this fashion, the officals screwed the pooch, as our umpiring brethern would say, in this situation. If a coach is continually requesting a TO during a ThI and neither officials ignore his legitimate requests for a TO, then they have to suck the TF back into their whistles and man-up to their poor game and court awareness.

MTD, Sr.

[LDUB]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

While no wants to see a HC out on the court in this fashion, the officals screwed the pooch, as our umpiring brethern would say, in this situation. If a coach is continually requesting a TO during a ThI and neither officials ignore his legitimate requests for a TO, then they have to suck the TF back into their whistles and man-up to their poor game and court awareness.

First off the officials did not "screw the pooch". Every time there is a thread about rules we would like to see changed multiple people always suggest not allowing coaches to request timeouts. It is hard to do, it is a hassle. Sometimes the officials will miss a timeout request because they are not looking in the direction of the bench.

Neither one of the officials ignored his legitimate request. They were not aware that he was requesting a timeout. It is not the officials fault that the gym was loud and they could not hear the coach calling timeout.

The NCAA rules say "Coaches are expected to remain in the coaching box. To do otherwise results in a distinct advantage that is not within the spirit and intent of the rules." The coach leaving the box created a distinct advantage for his team. Had he not left the box the team would not have been granted a timeout. If I was the opposing coach in this game and you didn't call the T you can be sure that I would find my way to the middle of the court while the ball is live at some point in the game. If you're going to allow the other coach to gain an advantage by walking out to the middle of the court I'm for sure going to try to help my team out by doing the same thing.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by LDUB

Every time there is a thread about rules we would like to see changed multiple people always suggest not allowing coaches to request timeouts. It is hard to do, it is a hassle. Sometimes the officials will miss a timeout request because they are not looking in the direction of the bench.

I'm one of those multiple people. Game awareness will certainly help, a lot, but there are situations where it is unbelievably difficult to grant a request for a timeout. One situation in in the first half, where an offensive player gets trapped in the corner, against the division line, and the sideline. The official is looking for out of bounds, backcourt, illegal "reaching in" contact, illegal movement of the pivot foot, etc., when from the bench on the other side of the table comes a request for a time out. If you think this is an easy situation to grant a timeout, then you haven't been officiating very long. The other situation involves players on the floor trying to get control of a loose ball. The official is looking for any one of a variety of violations, any one of a variety of fouls, or a held ball, when a voice from the bench requests a timeout. Again, if you think this is an easy situation to grant a timeout, then you haven't been officiating very long.

Game awareness helps. A good partner helps. But let's go back to the old rule where only players on the court could request a timeout.

Happy New Year.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by LDUB

First off the officials did not "screw the pooch". Every time there is a thread about rules we would like to see changed multiple people always suggest not allowing coaches to request timeouts. It is hard to do, it is a hassle. Sometimes the officials will miss a timeout request because they are not looking in the direction of the bench.

Neither one of the officials ignored his legitimate request. They were not aware that he was requesting a timeout. It is not the officials fault that the gym was loud and they could not hear the coach calling timeout.

The NCAA rules say "Coaches are expected to remain in the coaching box. To do otherwise results in a distinct advantage that is not within the spirit and intent of the rules." The coach leaving the box created a distinct advantage for his team. Had he not left the box the team would not have been granted a timeout. If I was the opposing coach in this game and you didn't call the T you can be sure that I would find my way to the middle of the court while the ball is live at some point in the game. If you're going to allow the other coach to gain an advantage by walking out to the middle of the court I'm for sure going to try to help my team out by doing the same thing.

LDUB:

Anybody who knows me will tell you that I have a near "zero" tolerance for unsportsmanlike conduct; just ask my two sons about the lectures I gave them concerning the type of behavior I expected of them as athletes, even my wife has gets a "dirty" look from me when she lets the umpires know they are lacking in their performances (she may be correct, but nobody in the stands would ever know what my opinion is of the officiating).

I and several others have stressed game awareness. The noise level may have been very high, but the T was OOT, meaning he should, I have previously stated, been looking through the players. I think that I am smart enough to recongnize the difference between a coach out on the court to coach his team or display his displeasure with the officicating and him requesting a TO.

A case in point is the 2004 YBOA Boys' National Championship. I had a 9U pool play game early in the tournament. Early in the third quarter I was T Table Side. A1 was holding the ball at the top of the key when A-HC left his coaching box to run out onto the court and picked up A2 who was standing about six feet below the free-throw line extended and carried him to a spot about three feet above the free-throw line extended. My immediate repsonse was: WHACK!!

MTD, Sr.

P.S. Daryl was not officiating the game with me.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

just another ref:

Ignats is correct on this. While no wants to see a HC out on the court in this fashion, the officals screwed the pooch, as our umpiring brethern would say, in this situation. If a coach is continually requesting a TO during a ThI and neither officials ignore his legitimate requests for a TO, then they have to suck the TF back into their whistles and man-up to their poor game and court awareness.

MTD, Sr.

I guess, to me, if the coach had been doing everything within the rules before he walked out onto the court, I'd have more compassion. Frankly, from the L's perspective, he's just walking and talking in a loud gym. He might very well be offering instructions to his players.

In the OP (as specified later), he was not using the widely accepted hand signal. Not only could the officials not hear him due to the gym, they couldn't see him due to the fact he wasn't giving a signal. I'm sorry, but this is a very key point.

Coaches aren't idiots, and a varsity coach should know that in a loud gym he's going to have to aid his timeout request with the signal.

[fiasco]

I would call a T for no other reason than to avoid being seen as a coward by "veteran" officials.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by fiasco

I would call a T for no other reason than to avoid being seen as a coward by "veteran" officials.

ROFLMAO!! By the way, do you officiating skills reflect your username?

MTD, Sr.

[Ray_from_Mi]

All games from now on, keep in mind, time-score-situation Sometimes we do some 'closet-coaching' while on the floor, i.e. a team is on a 'run' and the opposing coach needs to call a TO to 'put out the fire'. We start checking (visual only) with the coach to see if he's looking to call a TO. If I was the coach in your example. I would be really upset if I was to receive a T because you are not aware of my verbal request for a TO w/ 3min. to go and possibly a close score. It was evident the coach was willing to go to great lengths to get someone's attention.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ray_from_Mi

All games from now on, keep in mind, time-score-situation Sometimes we do some 'closet-coaching' while on the floor, i.e. a team is on a 'run' and the opposing coach needs to call a TO to 'put out the fire'. We start checking (visual only) with the coach to see if he's looking to call a TO. If I was the coach in your example. I would be really upset if I was to receive a T because you are not aware of my verbal request for a TO w/ 3min. to go and possibly a close score. It was evident the coach was willing to go to great lengths to get someone's attention.

Then he should have $#$!#^% signalled. I would tell him that as I reported the T.

[Freddy]

Seven pages of responses leads me back to that one rule I'd change if I could -- that only players on the floor may request a timeout.
If the coach then fails to get the attention of his/her player on the floor to make a request, that's a team communication problem. As it is, it has, by default, become "our" problem over "our" perceived failure to see or hear the coach make the request. Not always the easiest thing to do in close game in a noisy gym with each offical properly covering his/her primary.
Glancing through the Officials' Manual, I don't see any indication of which offical has the bench area specifically designated as his area of coverage.
I'm not the king, but if I were, I'd change that rule and solve 98% of these situations. The other 2% probably wouldn't occur.
Sound rational?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Freddy

Seven pages of responses leads me back to that one rule I'd change if I could -- that only players on the floor may request a timeout.
If the coach then fails to get the attention of his/her player on the floor to make a request, that's a team communication problem. As it is, it has, by default, become "our" problem over "our" perceived failure to see or hear the coach make the request. Not always the easiest thing to do in close game in a noisy gym with each offical properly covering his/her primary.
Glancing through the Officials' Manual, I don't see any indication of which offical has the bench area specifically designated as his area of coverage.
I'm not the king, but if I were, I'd change that rule and solve 98% of these situations. The other 2% probably wouldn't occur.
Sound rational?

I like it. However, if there's a change, it's most likely to allow only players to request a TO during a live ball but allow coaches to also request a TO during a dead ball (if we're lucky, only dead balls with the clock stopped). In that case, the OP still happens.