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Old Sat Dec 27, 2008, 11:37pm
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Question Correctable?--end of half shot

FED Rules.

Christmas tourney, my crew is in changing room when officials from ongoing game come in at halftime.

R had last shot responsibilities and counted basket at buzzer. Now he is talking to his partners about the play and he realizes that he blew the call, ball was released after buzzer. U1 has no opinion but U2 says ball definitely was released late.

Discussion ensues amongst all of us whether it is a correctable error. I say it is (erroneously awarding a basket). We pulled out rules and case books but nothing directly addressed this situation.

Crew decided not take the points off the board. Game turned into a blow-out and 2 points had no affect on outcome.

Opinions, interps, or relevant case plays please.

OT: When we arrived at the game in 2nd quarter there was a long delay. Turns out a player threw up during a live ball. No one word if he threw up on anybody's shoes.
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Last edited by Raymond; Sat Dec 27, 2008 at 11:40pm.
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Old Sat Dec 27, 2008, 11:50pm
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Not sure whether this is a correctable error(2-10) or not. As per the passage you cite, I don't see why it wouldn't be. But this is certainly a call that can be changed when the official realizes his mistake, either on his own or after receiving input from a partner.
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Old Sat Dec 27, 2008, 11:55pm
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It's a correctable error for the reason that you gave.

2.10.1 Sit C says that you are still within the proper time frame for correction.
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Old Sun Dec 28, 2008, 10:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
It's a correctable error for the reason that you gave. 2.10.1 Sit C says that you are still within the proper time frame for correction.
2.10.1 SITUATION C: A1 is fouled with one second remaining in the second quarter. Team A is awarded a throw-in and A1 passes the ball inbounds to A2, the horn sounds ending the quarter. As officials enter the court from the half-time intermission, the scorer informs the Referee that A1 should have been awarded one-and-one bonus situation. RULING: The error is discovered within the correctable error time frame, and shall be corrected. A1 is awarded a one-and-one bonus situation with the lane cleared. Resume play from the point of interruption, which is an alternating-possession throw-in to start the third quarter. (2-10-1a; 2-10-6; 5-6-2 Exception 3)

The time frame is certainly within correctable error guidelines. This situation deals with the only correctable error that doesn't involve free throws, or no free throws. I've always wondered exactly what "erroneously counting or canceling a score" meant. Casebook plays describe examples involving basketball interference, and three/two point shots. I believe that we can all agree that this is within the time frame to be correctable, so let's view this situation without the distraction of halftime, or any other time frame issue. Shot "at" buzzer ending first period. Trail official counts it. While players are heading to bench, officials meet at center circle to discuss the last second shot, and decide, as a group, that the buzzer came before the release. Basket is waved off. That's how I would view this situation. My only question, is this a true correctable error, or is this officials getting together to to make a decision, i.e. correction, advice, or help, on an out of bounds call?
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Dec 28, 2008 at 10:55am.
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Old Sun Dec 28, 2008, 11:10am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post

My only question, is this a true correctable error, or is this officials getting together to to make a decision.....

I sorta had the same question, but decided the answer is: What's the difference?
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Old Sun Dec 28, 2008, 11:29am
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If the official had counted a properly timed shot as a three instead of a two, they could fix it as a correctable error. This is no different.
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Old Sun Dec 28, 2008, 12:04pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
What's the difference?
Inquiring minds want to know.
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Old Sun Dec 28, 2008, 12:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
What's the difference?
A correctable error is one of five things during a basketball game that an official can definitely change and has a clearly specified timeframe in which that change must be made.

There are other aspects of the game in which a mistake by the officials or table crew either cannot be fixed at all once it happens or can be changed whenever it is noticed prior to the end of the game. Think of throw-ins to the wrong team and booking keeping mistakes.

Therefore, whether the situation in the OP is classified as a correctable error or simply a missed call and a partner providing help would impact WHEN this mistake can fixed.

If it is a CE then the goal can be cancelled even after the 2nd half has started. The officials would have until the first dead ball after the clock has properly started in the 3rd quarter becomes live to make the correction. If it is merely a help situation, then once the ball becomes live to begin the 3rd quarter the goal must stand, just like any OOB call. It's too late to fix it once play restarts.
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Old Sun Dec 28, 2008, 12:28pm
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Error, Or Help ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
Whether the situation in the OP is classified as a correctable error or simply a missed call and a partner providing help would impact WHEN this mistake can fixed. If it is a CE then the goal can be canceled even after the 2nd half has started. The officials would have until the first dead ball after the clock has properly started in the 3rd quarter becomes live to make the correction. If it is merely a help situation, then once the ball becomes live to begin the 3rd quarter the goal must stand, just like any OOB call. It's too late to fix it once play restarts.
Excellent point made in your first statement. However, you've left us with two "ifs" and no opinion either way. I believe, but not strongly, that it's a help situation, but I can be convinced otherwise.
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Old Sun Dec 28, 2008, 12:30pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post

If it is a CE then the goal can be cancelled even after the 2nd half has started. The officials would have until the first dead ball after the clock has properly started in the 3rd quarter becomes live to make the correction. If it is merely a help situation, then once the ball becomes live to begin the 3rd quarter the goal must stand, just like any OOB call. It's too late to fix it once play restarts.
Got all that. But since the OP takes place going into halftime, the correction would pretty much be made then or not at all. Can we think of an example when the time restriction would come into play on the "erroneously counting or canceling a score" part of this rule?
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Old Sun Dec 28, 2008, 12:45pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Excellent point made in your first statement. However, you've left us with two "ifs" and no opinion either way. I believe, but not strongly, that it's a help situation, but I can be convinced otherwise.
I already provided that info in post #3.


Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
Got all that. But since the OP takes place going into halftime, the correction would pretty much be made then or not at all. Can we think of an example when the time restriction would come into play on the "erroneously counting or canceling a score" part of this rule?
Sure.

Two point shot made with a toe on the 3 point line during play. The covering official incorrectly signals a three. The clock is running and his partner doesn't halt play despite clearly observing the location of the shooter's feet. After the throw-in the opposing team advances the ball to the other end of the court and a foul is called.
The officials must correct the error and properly award only two points for the previous goal before the ball becomes live again.
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Old Sun Dec 28, 2008, 12:56pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
I already provided that info in post #3.
So, in the original post, once the ball becomes live to start the third period, it's still not to late to take away the basket, but after that, once the ball becomes dead, and then live, it's too late to change the score.
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Old Sun Dec 28, 2008, 01:02pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
So, in the original post, once the ball becomes live to start the third period, it's still not to late to take away the basket, but after that, once the ball becomes dead, and then live, it's too late to change the score.
Correct.
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Old Sun Dec 28, 2008, 01:09pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post

Two point shot made with a toe on the 3 point line during play. The covering official incorrectly signals a three. The clock is running and his partner doesn't halt play despite clearly observing the location of the shooter's feet. After the throw-in the opposing team advances the ball to the other end of the court and a foul is called.
The officials must correct the error and properly award only two points for the previous goal before the ball becomes live again.
I meant like the OP. It's good. No, it's not.
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Old Sun Dec 28, 2008, 01:47pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
I meant like the OP.
Ok, let's say that the covering official (U) counts the goal and the other official (R) saw it as late, but is unaware that his partner scored it.
They fail to discuss the play during halftime because each one thought it was handled properly and are unaware of any problem.

When play resumes in the 3rd quarter the same team who was credited with the goal at the end of the 2nd quarter has the AP arrow. They inbound and score a basket on that possession. The opposing coach now requests a time-out because he believes that the score is wrong. He can't understand why his team is trailing by six instead of only four. He thought that he was only down two at halftime.

So now the R becomes aware that his partner incorrectly counted the goal at the end of the 1st half. Since this is a correctable error and the R gets to make the decision when the officials disagree on whether or not a goal shall count, he can still make the change.
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