Clock doesn't start question

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I do not know if "no time adjustment" makes any sense. Time had to go off the clock in some capacity. They know the ball was in play. They know a foul took place. If it is only a second or two seconds, that is better than saying "we have no idea." They have some idea; they cannot be excessive with it.

Peace

I didn't say it made sense. I said "by rule."

5-10-1: The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer.......only when he has definite information relative to the time involved.

Is an adjustment routinely made in this situation by officials? Yes

Is it strictly legal? No

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I didn't say it made sense. I said "by rule."

5-10-1: The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer.......only when he has definite information relative to the time involved.

Is an adjustment routinely made in this situation by officials? Yes

Is it strictly legal? No

You know the clock was supposed to start. I did not say run off a minute, I said run off a second or two (unless you know it was longer). And you know a second should have run off the clock. If there were several dribbles, I would run off more. I would have definite knowledge the clock should have run. I would not run off any more than a couple of seconds when clearly that is what should have happen. Watch the clock and you do not have to worry about these kinds of things in the first place.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You know the clock was supposed to start. I did not say run off a minute, I said run off a second or two (unless you know it was longer). And you know a second should have run off the clock. If there were several dribbles, I would run off more. I would have definite knowledge the clock should have run. I would not run off any more than a couple of seconds when clearly that is what should have happen. Watch the clock and you do not have to worry about these kinds of things in the first place.

Peace

Definite knowledge that "a second or two" has elapsed? Sounds like a contradiction in terms.

[JRutledge]

I do not see a problem with running a second off the clock if you know the clock was supposed to stop. You are splitting hairs in my opinion over what definite knowledge is. Even a visible count is an estimate, you may or may not be accurate if you use that alone. Some official's counts are fast and some official's counts are slow. And I would have definite knowledge that at least a couple of seconds ran off the clock if the ball was put into play and a player dribbled a few times. More time than that might be a little more of a problem. I have no problem suggesting I have definite knowledge at that point. I do not see where in the rulebook or casebook it says how you come to that conclusion. I just know that I am not going to give a foul and not run at the very least one second off the clock in this situation. I know the clock was supposed to start. You do not have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out in my opinion. But if you do not want to be in this situation, watch the clock to start and stop no matter where you are on the court. Then you will not have to worry about if the clock started properly.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

You are splitting hairs in my opinion over what definite knowledge is. I do not see where in the rulebook or casebook it says how you come to that conclusion.

5-10-2: ......an official's count or other official information may be used to make a correction.

It is a given that in the OP there is no count by the officials, and you have not described anything which sounded remotely like official information.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

5-10-2: ......an official's count or other official information may be used to make a correction.

It is a given that in the OP there is no count by the officials, and you have not described anything which sounded remotely like official information.

So you are saying that the ball being thrown in and dribbled is not any information what so ever to know to take a second or two off the clock? You know the clock was at least to have a tick go off the clock just after the ball was put into play. We are not talking about a minute or 30 seconds here. We are talking about a very small measure of time where it is obvious that should have run off. And we had enough time for the ball to be put in play with a couple of dribbles (said by the OP) and have a foul. I do not need a count alone to know a couple of seconds ran off the clock. Not when someone dribbled a couple of times and then the defense fouls them. At the very least we should have 7:59 on the clock. That is why the rule in my opinion says "other information." We are not making a decision totally in a vacuum. We are making a decision based on some solid information that a second or two ran off the clock. The rule does not say we had to physically see the clock not start (or else). And if we did see the clock not physically stop, the time we take off is going to be an estimate (with or without a count) anyway.

Peace

[newera21]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

So you are saying that the ball being thrown in and dribbled is not any information what so ever to know to take a second or two off the clock?

The rule book says it's not. I'd go with the rule book and I think that's what Nevada is trying to say.

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I didn't say it made sense. I said "by rule."

5-10-1: The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer.......only when he has definite information relative to the time involved.

Is an adjustment routinely made in this situation by officials? Yes

Is it strictly legal? No

You need to read the above again. They had definite info relative to the time involved. The clock did not start properly. That is definite info. If you need confirmation, just email it to Mary Struckoff. The rule does not say that you need to know exactly how much time elapsed.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by socalreff

You need to read the above again. They had definite info relative to the time involved. The clock did not start properly. That is definite info. If you need confirmation, just email it to Mary Struckoff. The rule does not say that you need to know exactly how much time elapsed.

Okay, you know the clock should have started. How much time should have come off? At least a full second? Do you even know that for sure?

No.

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Okay, you know the clock should have started. How much time should have come off? At least a full second? Do you even know that for sure?

No.

Are you that inept that you can't replay the play in your head and have a very good estimate of the time elapsed?
This exact play was brought to the National Fed. and the interp. was to take off the time based on your best estimate. Mary Struckoff was adamant that the language in the rule specifically states that you only need definite knowledge that there was an errror. You may correct the clock if you know it was not started properly.
Question: 0.7 left on the clock. Player catches inbounds pass takes 3 dribbles and shoots and scores. Clock never starts until the shot is in the air.
Are you going to count it? Redo it? Or nullify the shot and walk off the floor?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by socalreff

Are you that inept that you can't replay the play in your head and have a very good estimate of the time elapsed?
This exact play was brought to the National Fed. and the interp. was to take off the time based on your best estimate. Mary Struckoff was adamant that the language in the rule specifically states that you only need definite knowledge that there was an errror.

Where is this published?

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Where is this published?

{Jepordy theme song plays}

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

{Jepordy theme song plays}

A.R. 136. With 4 seconds remaining on the game clock, A1 makes a
throw-in to A2. The game clock does not start when the throwin
is touched by A2. The ball is passed twice, a shot is taken
and the rebound is deflected out of bounds by B1. Prior to
placing the ball at the disposal of A1 for a throw-in, the official
recognizes that there are 4 seconds on the game clock indicating
that the game clock was not properly started on the previous
throw-in.
RULING: When an obvious timing mistake has occurred because
of failure to start or stop the game clock properly, the mistake shall
be corrected only when the referee has definite information relative
to the time involved. The officials have definite information that the
game clock did not start. The officials shall confer with each other and/or check with
the official timer to determine the correct time, if any time remains,
to be placed on the game clock. By rule, the decision must be made
relative to the time involved. The officials are not permitted to leave 4
seconds on the game clock and repeat the initial the throw-in by A1.
(Rule 5-11.1)

[socalreff]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Where is this published?

A.R. 131. With 10 seconds remaining on the game clock in the first half,
A1 makes a throw-in to A2 (game clock not started—official
timer’s mistake). A2 dribbles into the front court and misses
the try. B1 recovers the rebound and dribbles the full length of
the playing court. As the player passes the bench, the coach of
Team A notices that the game clock has not started and calls
the mistake to the attention of the official timer, who starts the
game clock. With one second left on the game clock in the half,
A2 fouls B1. The bonus is in effect. Time expires before the official
timer can stop the game clock.
RULING: The referee cannot correct this official timer’s mistake unless
he or she knows relatively how much time had elapsed while the
game clock was stopped. The referee shall conduct a re-enactment of
the sequential occurrence of the play to determine that relative time.
To assist the referee, information may be attained from the official
timer who should have informed the official of the mistake. When
the referee determines that there is time remaining, the referee shall
put the determined time on the game clock. A2 shall be assessed with
a personal foul and play shall be resumed at the point where the ball
was located when play was stopped to correct the timer’s mistake.
In this case, B1 shall be awarded the entitled free throw(s) for A2’s
personal foul and play shall be resumed from that point with the corrected
time on the game clock. A correction is only permitted when
it falls within the prescribed time frame limit. When it is determined
that there is no time left on the game clock, the game is over and the
personal foul is not assessed unless it is flagrant or intentional.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by socalreff

This exact play was brought to the National Fed. and the interp. was to take off the time based on your best estimate. Mary Struckoff was adamant

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Where is this published?

Originally Posted by socalreff

A.R. 131.

So this question was brought to the NFHS, and Mary Struckoff was so adamant that the FED issued an NCAA Approved Ruling?