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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 14, 2008, 11:49pm
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Clock doesn't start question

Didn't happen in my game, but happened in my area. Beginning of second period, A1 inbounds to A2 in the team's FC. A2 takes a few dribbles and is fouled by B1. The officials then realize the clock hadn't started and still reads 8:00. The official didn't have any visual count going since it was in the FC (no knowledge of the time tha elapsed). The officials ultimately decided to take the foul away and inbound the ball again with 8:00 on the clock as if the play had never happened. How would you handle this one?
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Sun Dec 14, 2008, 11:55pm
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No I would not handle it that way. Just take a few seconds off the clock, but keep the foul. They might not have had a perfect way to figure out the time, but they had to have some idea. I do not see how they just take the foul off the board. It still happened.

Peace
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Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 15, 2008, 12:05am
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By rule, no time adjustment can be made in this case. Leave the clock alone and proceed with the foul penalty.
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Lonesome Dove
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 15, 2008, 12:07am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
By rule, no time adjustment can be made in this case. Leave the clock alone and proceed with the foul penalty.
I do not know if "no time adjustment" makes any sense. Time had to go off the clock in some capacity. They know the ball was in play. They know a foul took place. If it is only a second or two seconds, that is better than saying "we have no idea." They have some idea; they cannot be excessive with it.

Peace
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Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 15, 2008, 12:15am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I do not know if "no time adjustment" makes any sense. Time had to go off the clock in some capacity. They know the ball was in play. They know a foul took place. If it is only a second or two seconds, that is better than saying "we have no idea." They have some idea; they cannot be excessive with it.

Peace
I didn't say it made sense. I said "by rule."

5-10-1: The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer.......only when he has definite information relative to the time involved.

Is an adjustment routinely made in this situation by officials? Yes

Is it strictly legal? No
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Lonesome Dove
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 15, 2008, 12:37am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
I didn't say it made sense. I said "by rule."

5-10-1: The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer.......only when he has definite information relative to the time involved.

Is an adjustment routinely made in this situation by officials? Yes

Is it strictly legal? No
You know the clock was supposed to start. I did not say run off a minute, I said run off a second or two (unless you know it was longer). And you know a second should have run off the clock. If there were several dribbles, I would run off more. I would have definite knowledge the clock should have run. I would not run off any more than a couple of seconds when clearly that is what should have happen. Watch the clock and you do not have to worry about these kinds of things in the first place.

Peace
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Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 15, 2008, 01:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
You know the clock was supposed to start. I did not say run off a minute, I said run off a second or two (unless you know it was longer). And you know a second should have run off the clock. If there were several dribbles, I would run off more. I would have definite knowledge the clock should have run. I would not run off any more than a couple of seconds when clearly that is what should have happen. Watch the clock and you do not have to worry about these kinds of things in the first place.

Peace
Definite knowledge that "a second or two" has elapsed? Sounds like a contradiction in terms.
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Lonesome Dove
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 15, 2008, 02:59am
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I do not see a problem with running a second off the clock if you know the clock was supposed to stop. You are splitting hairs in my opinion over what definite knowledge is. Even a visible count is an estimate, you may or may not be accurate if you use that alone. Some official's counts are fast and some official's counts are slow. And I would have definite knowledge that at least a couple of seconds ran off the clock if the ball was put into play and a player dribbled a few times. More time than that might be a little more of a problem. I have no problem suggesting I have definite knowledge at that point. I do not see where in the rulebook or casebook it says how you come to that conclusion. I just know that I am not going to give a foul and not run at the very least one second off the clock in this situation. I know the clock was supposed to start. You do not have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out in my opinion. But if you do not want to be in this situation, watch the clock to start and stop no matter where you are on the court. Then you will not have to worry about if the clock started properly.

Peace
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Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 15, 2008, 04:08am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
You are splitting hairs in my opinion over what definite knowledge is. I do not see where in the rulebook or casebook it says how you come to that conclusion.

5-10-2: ......an official's count or other official information may be used to make a correction.

It is a given that in the OP there is no count by the officials, and you have not described anything which sounded remotely like official information.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 15, 2008, 07:12am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by just another ref View Post
5-10-2: ......an official's count or other official information may be used to make a correction.

It is a given that in the OP there is no count by the officials, and you have not described anything which sounded remotely like official information.
So you are saying that the ball being thrown in and dribbled is not any information what so ever to know to take a second or two off the clock? You know the clock was at least to have a tick go off the clock just after the ball was put into play. We are not talking about a minute or 30 seconds here. We are talking about a very small measure of time where it is obvious that should have run off. And we had enough time for the ball to be put in play with a couple of dribbles (said by the OP) and have a foul. I do not need a count alone to know a couple of seconds ran off the clock. Not when someone dribbled a couple of times and then the defense fouls them. At the very least we should have 7:59 on the clock. That is why the rule in my opinion says "other information." We are not making a decision totally in a vacuum. We are making a decision based on some solid information that a second or two ran off the clock. The rule does not say we had to physically see the clock not start (or else). And if we did see the clock not physically stop, the time we take off is going to be an estimate (with or without a count) anyway.

Peace
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Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 15, 2008, 09:26am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
They might not have had a perfect way to figure out the time, but they had to have some idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I do not know if "no time adjustment" makes any sense. Time had to go off the clock in some capacity.
You're absolutely right that some time had to come off the clock. However, by rule, you can't make an adjustment if you "have some idea". You need definite knowledge.

Can't say I like it in this particular situation, but that's what we're stuck with.

(I didn't read the whole thread. Didn't mean to pile on.)
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 15, 2008, 09:30am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
So you are saying that the ball being thrown in and dribbled is not any information what so ever to know to take a second or two off the clock?
The rule book says it's not. I'd go with the rule book and I think that's what Nevada is trying to say.
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 15, 2008, 10:04am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
You're absolutely right that some time had to come off the clock. However, by rule, you can't make an adjustment if you "have some idea". You need definite knowledge.

Can't say I like it in this particular situation, but that's what we're stuck with.

(I didn't read the whole thread. Didn't mean to pile on.)
The funny thing is I did not say I was making an adjustment based on an assumption. I would have definite knowledge the clock should have started. Then I have definite knowledge a dribble or two were taken. I have definite knowledge the time on the clock would not be 8:00 on the clock if run properly. I have definite knowledge that at the very least the clock should read 7:59 and not 8:00. I guess this is where I will have to disagree with some people's interpretation of the word "definite." I do not know how all those things can happen and not one second go off the clock. Some time definitely elapsed even in the best case scenario.

Peace
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Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 15, 2008, 10:16am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I have definite knowledge the time on the clock would not be 8:00 on the clock if run properly. I have definite knowledge that at the very least the clock should read 7:59 and not 8:00. I guess this is where I will have to disagree with some people's interpretation of the word "definite."
I can certainly see how you could come to that conclusion. I know others on this forum have made the same argument.

If you counted 5-seconds in the backcourt and then after a few more seconds in the frontcourt, you realize that the clock never started, you have definite knowledge that at least 5 seconds should have run off the clock. I have to admit that makes some sense to me.

But others, Jurassic was one, say that you have to have definite knowledge of exactly how much time should have run off in order to make any adjustment. I have to say that I think I fall into this category.
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 15, 2008, 10:30am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
I can certainly see how you could come to that conclusion. I know others on this forum have made the same argument.

If you counted 5-seconds in the backcourt and then after a few more seconds in the frontcourt, you realize that the clock never started, you have definite knowledge that at least 5 seconds should have run off the clock. I have to admit that makes some sense to me.

But others, Jurassic was one, say that you have to have definite knowledge of exactly how much time should have run off in order to make any adjustment. I have to say that I think I fall into this category.
BktBallRef and I would take off the five seconds. It's simple. You take off what you know. You don't alter what you don't. So you also wouldn't leave time on the clock for which you have definite knowledge to remove.

In this case we don't know exactly how many seconds the game action took, nor do we have a count of any kind at all. Therefore, BY RULE, we can't alter the clock in any way.

Last edited by bob jenkins; Mon Dec 15, 2008 at 10:52am.
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