Double Whistle Situation

[Adam]

Originally Posted by CoachP

So what's the POI on the infamous blarge? Lead has a PC and C has a block?

Depends if there is a shot released prior to contact or not.

And yes, if the shot is released first, the basket will count and B will get the ball for an end-line throwin. (assuming it's made)

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by CoachP

So what's the POI on the infamous blarge? Lead has a PC and C has a block?

I may be corrected on this, but I believe a double foul in the case of blarge with an airborn shooter involved, it would void the basket - the ball would become dead immediately, with no team control, so you would go to the arrow.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Depends if there is a shot released prior to contact or not.

And yes, if the shot is released first, the basket will count and B will get the ball for an end-line throwin. (assuming it's made)

Really? I thought a double foul voided the option for the basket to count.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Smitty

I may be corrected on this, but I believe a double foul in the case of blarge with an airborn shooter involved, it would void the basket - the ball would become dead immediately, with no team control, so you would go to the arrow.

Yep, you would be corrected on this. Normally you would be right that you would not count the basket after a player-control foul. But the case play 4.19.8 Sit C tells us it is not considered a player-control foul, it is instead a double foul, and if there is a basket, the basket is scored.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Yep, you would be corrected on this. Normally you would be right that you would not count the basket after a player-control foul. But the case play 4.19.8 Sit C tells us it is not considered a player-control foul, it is instead a double foul, and if there is a basket, the basket is scored.

Yeah just looked it up. I stand corrected. Sorry if I caused any confusion. This is how we learn...

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

While I am of the same opinion as you, the rules (case plays) tell us EXPLICITLY that when officials give differing signals, you assess both as a double foul.

I know I'm beating this to death, but the word signal does not appear in the case play in question. A wrong signal is much easier to dismiss, in my opinion, than a wrong call.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I believe I read at one point the reason behind this is the theory that no official has the right to over-rule another's call.

I heartily agree with this. But the deal here is that while I may not overrule your call, and would not try to do so, if I have information which might lead you to change your call, I may, depending on the circumstances, choose to share this information with you. This is the case even when one official has made a signal and the other has not. If both officials have made a signal, and the two contradict each other, hopefully one will immediately yield to the other, or, if this is not possible, they can quickly confer.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

But the deal here is that while I may not overrule your call, and would not try to do so, if I have information which might lead you to change your call, I may, depending on the circumstances, choose to share this information with you. This is the case even when one official has made a signal and the other has not.

We agree.

Originally Posted by just another ref

If both officials have made a signal, and the two contradict each other, hopefully one will immediately yield to the other, or, if this is not possible, they can quickly confer.

While I agree in principle, I disagree from a rules standpoint, according the NFHS. If I'm a coach and happen to know the rules (there really are a few of those out there), I would have a vaild complaint that only one foul was reported against my team, even though there were two fouls called.

Again, I agree with your principle, but I disagree with going against the rules because I (or you, or whoever) disagree with the rule.

[just another ref]

I have one more question. This relates to the current Blarge-questions from coach thread. It is established that the case play in question does not specifically mention preliminary signals, but that seems to be the key to this case for those of you on the other side. In the OP of the other thread one official emphatically signals the PC, and the other simply has a fist up and makes no further signal. The second official saw the play as a block, was positive it was a block, but for whatever reason did not make the block signal. Why is he not obligated to report his foul?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I have one more question. This relates to the current Blarge-questions from coach thread. It is established that the case play in question does not specifically mention preliminary signals, but that seems to be the key to this case for those of you on the other side. In the OP of the other thread one official emphatically signals the PC, and the other simply has a fist up and makes no further signal. The second official saw the play as a block, was positive it was a block, but for whatever reason did not make the block signal. Why is he not obligated to report his foul?

He can go in and offer information and then allow the calling official to change the call to a block.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

He can go in and offer information and then allow the calling official to change the call to a block.

He can do this if he made no signal, but not if he made the block signal???
I don't follow this logic at all.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by just another ref

He can do this if he made no signal, but not if he made the block signal???
I don't follow this logic at all.

Most won't go in and offer anything unless it is an egregious error.

That's why it is important to pre-game!

[mick]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I have one more question. This relates to the current Blarge-questions from coach thread. It is established that the case play in question does not specifically mention preliminary signals, but that seems to be the key to this case for those of you on the other side. In the OP of the other thread one official emphatically signals the PC, and the other simply has a fist up and makes no further signal. The second official saw the play as a block, was positive it was a block, but for whatever reason did not make the block signal. Why is he not obligated to report his foul?

Can only be a few reasons.

1. Because his partner came up with PC, the second official doubted his own call.
2. Because he didn't know how to administer the double foul.
3. Because he was afraid of something.

[eyezen]

Not to dredge up a old thread but this was just released from my supervisor to his staff. I would say it is pretty definitive to how this is supposed to be handled on the Men's side of things...bolded emphasis mine.



December 16th, 2008
BLARGE: Block/Charge Double Foul Call



BLARGE: Block/Charge Double Foul Call

A drive or move to the basket may result in contact between the offensive and defensive player. While Refereeing the Defense is one of the pillars of basketball officiating, the official must determine if the defensive player has established initial, legal guarding position: two feet on the floor, in bounds, facing the opponent. The defensive player may move to maintain legal guarding position-laterally and backwards, just not forward or obliquely while also maintaining his own vertical plane (POV-Principal of Verticality). If contact does occur, then the basketball official goes to work.



The official must determine if the contact between A and B is illegal, a Charge by A or a Block by B, or incidental contact where no advantage or disadvantage or rough play to either player has resulted from this contact.



This discussion invokes Men's NCAA Rules and CCA Mechanics.



In the CCA Men's Basketball Officiating Manual, 2008-2009, Section 1.1 Block/Charge Calls p. 20 and Section 1.2 Drives to the Basket p. 21, jurisdiction to determine this call is levied upon the Lead official to have primary coverage if the contact occurs within the Free Throw Lane Lines; however, in case of double whistles, the outside official may take this call as he might have the best look.

Hence, there might be an indeterminate time frame where one official may call and signal "Block" while the other official calls and signals "Charge" nearly simultaneously. Hence, a "BLARGE" may result.



A Blarge is a Double Foul and must be processed as such. It would be incorrect to allow one official's call override or set aside the other's. A discussion of the four types of Blarge Double Foul scenarios: Player and Team Control, Team Control and the two examples of this type of double foul following a FGA where there is loss of team control, will be addressed in this essay.



To avoid a Blarge, by convention the Center and Trail officials are schooled to hold their preliminary signals. That is, they might sound their whistle and stop the clock to signal a foul, but do not add the block or charge signal...hesitating to ensure that indeed the Lead has come up with the call as affirmed by instant eye contact between the Lead and outside calling official. In some situations, it might be the outside official (Center or Trail) who takes this play. This mechanic should always be included in the official's Pre-Game Meeting to help ensure excellent communication, cohesiveness and crew dynamics.



Administering a Blarge:

Player Control, dribbling or moving (pivoting) and contact occurs: by rule in any double foul situation, both A is charged with a personal foul and B would be charged with a personal foul. The ball is administered at the Point of Interruption (POI) and would be given back to A at the spot nearest to where the foul was called , with no reset of the shot clock.



Team Control ( an airborne passer, an interrupted dribble play, a throw in, etc.) when player A makes contact with a defender B. Since A is still in Team Control when the double foul was called, again A would retain possession as they are still in Team Control. Under POI , the ball would be put in play at the closest spot to where the foul occurred, with no reset of the shot clock.



After the release of the ball for a FGA and a Blarge occurs, there is loss of Team Control. With no TC, if A's FGA is successful, POI B would entitle B to a throw in from a non-designated spot along the end line.



If the FGA is not successful and a Blarge occurs after the release, since there is no TC, administration of this double foul would call for the Alternating Possession (AP) arrow-POI-- at a designated spot nearest to where the foul occurred, with a reset of the shot clock.



Please refer to the 2009 NCAA Basketball Rule Book: 4.53.1.d for POI, 4-3.3.6 for Team Control and 7-5.8,9 for Double Foul POI indications. Also, please review the 2009 NCAA Basketball Case Book, p. 39 A.R. 95 for Double Foul play administration and pp. 69, 70 A.R. 172 for Blarge specific plays.



Blarge Management Key Points: Have a thorough pre-game. Outside officials hold preliminary signals. Know the various scenarios for double fouls. Work for consistent communication and optimal crew chemistry and dynamics.

[walter]

Eye: Excellent post. Pre-gaming how the crew will handle crash situations is critical. Having officials hold signals and give calls to primary coverage official is how it has been driven home by the supervisors I have.