Double Whistle Situation

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Sorry, but I disagree with both of these sentences.

The first sentence is definitely debatable, but how is it possible to have a block and a charge on the same contact?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The first sentence is definitely debatable, but how is it possible to have a block and a charge on the same contact?

From a strictly rules theory perspective, it's not.

However, 4.19.8 SitC tells us if two officials make two different calls on the same play (one a block, the other a charge), both fouls are reported, and it is considered a double foul. That is something the NFHS has determined for while, so whether or not we agree with this determination is not an option; we report a double foul.

Of course, the best way to avoid that situation is for the primary official to make the call, or for the two officials to not give a preliminary signal before making eye contact to determine who will sell the call.

[mick]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

From a strictly rules theory perspective, it's not.

However, 4.19.8 SitC tells us if two officials make two different calls on the same play (one a block, the other a charge), both fouls are reported, and it is considered a double foul. That is something the NFHS has determined for while, so whether or not we agree with this determination is not an option; we report a double foul.

Of course, the best way to avoid that situation is for the primary official to make the call, or for the two officials to not give a preliminary signal before making eye contact to determine who will sell the call.

Good call.
Two fists up and no discussion.
One foul reported.
From the stands and from the bench, it looks like "the officials nailed it".

[Adam]

Okay, I’ll cave on the very particular call of “charging”; but it’s very possible to have a defensive block and a PC foul on the same play.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Okay, I’ll cave on the very particular call of “charging”; but it’s very possible to have a defensive block and a PC foul on the same play.

Are you talking about the possibility of A1 perhaps "clearing out" with a forearm, at the same time B1 has not established LGP? If so, I suppose it's possible to have both, but I would think that's even rarer than the "blarge". I would also think there's a good chance one foul would happen before the other.

[Adam]

I only spoke to its possibility, not its frequency.

[just another ref]

Okay, if we accept the idea (which I don't) that once a preliminary signal is made, we are obligated to stick with it, the question arises about when is a signal a signal? The official who has PC goes up with a fist, then starts back down with the hand before realizing his partner also has a fist up. Does the hand actually have to touch the back of the head to make it official, or what?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Okay, if we accept the idea (which I don't) that once a preliminary signal is made, we are obligated to stick with it, the question arises about when is a signal a signal? The official who has PC goes up with a fist, then starts back down with the hand before realizing his partner also has a fist up. Does the hand actually have to touch the back of the head to make it official, or what?

Don't over-think this too much. 99.73% of the time we're talking about two officials who have both come out and given a preliminary signal, without knowing the other official also had a call. Then it becomes obvious there are two calls.

If I'm reaching behind my head in your situation, I'm likely to have an itch back there.

[mick]

Originally Posted by just another ref

Okay, if we accept the idea (which I don't) that once a preliminary signal is made, we are obligated to stick with it, the question arises about when is a signal a signal? The official who has PC goes up with a fist, then starts back down with the hand before realizing his partner also has a fist up. Does the hand actually have to touch the back of the head to make it official, or what?

If PC official continues to team control or player control, partner drops his hand.
If PC official stops signaling after lowering his hand, he's giving it up.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

If I'm reaching behind my head in your situation, I'm likely to have an itch back there.

You're kinda helping me make my point now. There is more than one way out of this little predicament. Back of my head has been known to itch.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

You're kinda helping me make my point now. There is more than one way out of this little predicament. Back of my head has been known to itch.

M&M is right, this is about when both partners come out strong with opposing preliminaries.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

M&M is right, this is about when both partners come out strong with opposing preliminaries.

I'm sure this is true, but the preliminary signal alone means nothing. This is especially true when your partner has the opposite preliminary signal. If you report a double foul in this case you know one is wrong. So get together and take your best shot.

[eyezen]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I'm sure this is true, but the preliminary signal alone means nothing. This is especially true when your partner has the opposite preliminary signal. If you report a double foul in this case you know one is wrong. So get together and take your best shot.

For those that are new and/or working NFHS or NCAA-M, and unless you are working NCAA-W (can't speak for NBA or FIBA) this is such bad advice I don't know where to begin. First of all you've taken a bad situation, because the crew didn't "blow and hold", and now have turned it into a CF because you're deciding to do whatever you want to do. You'd be laughed right off the staff for that. Blarges happen, try not to let them, but if it does please don't complicate it and get it resolved how its supposed to be by the code of the game in question. I can explain a blarge to my assignor, I can't explain doing whatever I want to do.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by just another ref

I'm sure this is true, but the preliminary signal alone means nothing. This is especially true when your partner has the opposite preliminary signal. If you report a double foul in this case you know one is wrong. So get together and take your best shot ignore the explicit direction of the NFHS rules committee.

Fixed it for you.

[just another ref]

Question: Why do we form an angry mob about a backcourt interpretation but defend this issue with its direct contradiction?