Double whistle - sitch

[mick]

A1 in her front court picked up her dribble.
B1 is 12" away and pressuring with hands vertical.
A1 pivots away from B1 with a long step which puts her at an extended angle away from B1.
B1 steps over the pivot foot and leg of A1 while continuing pressure. No contact yet.
B1 takes another 1/2 step toward A1 and causes contact and A1 immediately stands into B1 and clears B1 with an elbow.

Tweet! Tweet!

Lead and Trail have Fists raised, Lead (me... had the block and saw the elbow clear out)holds fist; Trail had the player control and immediately signaled (he tried to hold back the PC but went to far).

Now what?

[A Dutch Ref]

You could call a foul on the both of them. (FIBA) But from your story I read that the defender came into the cilinder of the offensive player, so you were pretty right...

ADR

[Edited by A Dutch Ref on Sep 11th, 2002 at 08:14 AM]

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by mick
A1 in her front court picked up her dribble.
B1 is 12" away and pressuring with hands vertical.
A1 pivots away from B1 with a long step which puts her at an extended angle away from B1.
B1 steps over the pivot foot and leg of A1 while continuing pressure. No contact yet.
B1 takes another 1/2 step toward A1 and causes contact and A1 immediately stands into B1 and clears B1 with an elbow.

Tweet! Tweet!

Lead and Trail have Fists raised, Lead (me... had the block and saw the elbow clear out)holds fist; Trail had the player control and immediately signaled (he tried to hold back the PC but went to far).

Now what?

Hmmmm....sounds like this calls for a huddle between you and
your partner

"Pard, I know what you got but I have a block before the elbow."

Then the R goes to explain it to the coaches.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by mick

Now what?

(a) Travelling.
(b) Foul on the team that's ahead by 40 points.
(c) Go with the primary official's call.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by mick
B1 takes another 1/2 step toward A1 and causes contact and A1 immediately stands into B1 and clears B1 with an elbow.

Tweet! Tweet!

Lead and Trail have Fists raised, Lead (me... had the block and saw the elbow clear out)holds fist; Trail had the player control and immediately signaled (he tried to hold back the PC but went to far).

Now what?

My take,assuming the play was in an either-can-call area:
1)Gotta get together with your podner.
2)B1 caused the contact.Gotta be a foul on B1.
3)Ignore the elbow,unless one of you is adamant that it was deliberate,unsportsmanlike or flagrant.In that case,you call a "T" on A1 for deadball contact,and you got yourselves a false double foul.
4)R explains call to both coaches.
5)If an official called out of his primary,he gets to buy the brownpop after the game.

What call did you actually end up with,mick?

[Camron Rust]

B1 was in A1's vertical space. A1 owns the space above the pivot foot. B1 would be responsible for most any contact in that space at that point. If A1 had left the elbow out, it would be a simple block by B1. If I had been calling it (without the complication of the partner), it would have been a block by B1, with a side conversation to A1 on the elbow (since the ball was dead and it wan't a candidate for an intentional or flagrant foul).

But, since the trail had signaled, the best bet is probably a double foul. It's not fair to A1 to ignore the initial foul that the lead was calling because the trail was too hasty in signalling.

If a discussion with my pard didn't end with it being a block, I would push for a double foul and let him make the call.

It may not look pretty, but I believe in getting it right...or as close as possible.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by mick
B1 takes another 1/2 step toward A1 and causes contact and A1 immediately stands into B1 and clears B1 with an elbow.

Tweet! Tweet!

If B1 hadn't stepped in, I'd call PC, then the elbow, making a false double foul, as told by JR. But if B1 steps (or more likely scoots) into A1, causing contact, that's a block. Then the elbow has to be huge to become a dead ball T.

Didn't we agree last year, that if the player with the ball has the body balanced over only one leg, or even off balance, that the player's owned space is above and below the hips? Rather than above and below the feet? So B1 was legal as long as there was no contact?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker


So B1 was legal as long as there was no contact?

B1 was legal with no contact in any case. Maybe rephrase the question?

[bard]

I've either got a block or, depending upon the severity of the elbow, a double foul.

What was your solution Mick, and which one of you was calling out of your area?!! ;-)

[mick]

This play took place in my partner's primary.
I knew he did not see the block, but as soon as the whistles went off and he signaled, the fans were reacting to the call.
He then came to me, told me he had a PC, and asked me what I had, I just nodded and said, "You own it."
Had he not signaled,(and he almost pulled a muscle trying to bring it back) we would have had a block.

With the crowd already reacting, I decided not to add "Official Indecisiveness" to that picture.

[eroe39]

Mick, I tend to agree with what you did. Think about each coach's perspective. Coach A might complain about a first foul bump and might be a little upset. Coach B would see an offensive foul called and then you come an overrule your partner and change it to a block. Result- partner might go into the tank, Coach B is going to be pissed, looks like officials have no clue what they are doing out there. Now, if the first foul is simply obvious and your partner just absolutely blew the call then yes, I think you should get with your partner. But, by the way the play was described it seems like an elbow foul can be sold here even if not technically the correct call. Obviously, it would have been nice for your partner to hold their preliminary signal, but I would suck on my pride and talk calmly about this one in the lockerroom instead of create a situation we don't need to put in the game.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

B1 was legal with no contact in any case. Maybe rephrase the question?

What I was asking was, Did the refs think the position (straddling A1's leg) was illegal, even without contact? Were they interpreting it as A1's space, and B1 violating that, even though there was no contact?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker
[/B]

What I was asking was, Did the refs think the position (straddling A1's leg) was illegal, even without contact? Were they interpreting it as A1's space, and B1 violating that, even though there was no contact? [/B][/QUOTE]The point that Dirty Dan(who does dastardly deeds on dashing dogs)was trying to make was that B1's stance is always legal as long as there is no contact.B1's stance,without B1 moving,may,however,change to illegal as soon as contact is made.No contact = legal position = no foul.As soon as contact is made,the official then has to decide who is in who's space illegally,and then make the call accordingly.For instance,B1 can legally place their arns or hands directly over top of A1's head.It only becomes illegal when A1 jumps straight up to shoot or pass,and contacts B1's arms.I'm sure that I'm telling you something that you already know,but it's just a matter of semantics.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Sep 12th, 2002 at 04:44 AM]

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker

What I was asking was, Did the refs think the position (straddling A1's leg) was illegal, even without contact? Were they interpreting it as A1's space, and B1 violating that, even though there was no contact?

Except for the cheesy aliteration JR said what I would have
said. But maybe you're asking if B1 obtained legal guarding
position - both feet on the floor, torso facing, etc - even
though she was straddling A1's leg. I would say it depends
on who got there first. But legal guarding position is
useful for making calls involving screens or torso to torso
contact. I'm not so sure it applies here, but I'm open to
being convinced otherwise.

BTW, dirty dan's dastardly deed didn't detract from the dog's daily dance with life. Just made it easier to deal with

[mick]

Originally posted by eroe39
Now, if the first foul is simply obvious and your partner just absolutely blew the call then yes, I think you should get with your partner. But, by the way the play was described it seems like an elbow foul can be sold here even if not technically the correct call.

Eli,
My partner did not blow the call, he was straight-lined on the block, but he saw the elbow clearly.
And, yes the clear-out was a pretty easy call in that we both saw it, ...and the play happened on the end of the favored team.
mick