Unilateral Scorekeeper ???

[BillyMac]

During a timeout, the scorekeeper informs you that he added a home team name, and number, to the scorebook, several minutes, and several live balls, and several dead balls, earlier, without informing you until this timeout, because he didn't want to interrupt the game. The visiting coach hears this communication. What do you do? Citations please. Don't answer, call "Mythbusters", because they don't know the answer.

[zm1283]

NFHS 10-1-2b

....After the 10-minute time limit specified in Article 1, a team shall not add a name to the team member list.

Penalized when it occurs. May not be penalized after the ball has become live.

[Kelvin green]

I agree that this is penalized when it occurs and if it had been several live ball/deadballs earlier that you have no recourse.

That being said... If you only have one scorekeeper (especially the home team) and he puts it in the book and then tells you several minutes later... well Hamlet maight say something about Denmark....

By rule you cannot penalize the team for the change... I would tell the visiting coach that it is too late to penalize the change and that he was more than welcome to have a scorekeeper at the table. The fact that he did not negates any penalty or recourse that he might have ...

I would have a serious talk with the scorekeeper about when we get notified.

[Nevadaref]

The Referee should never leave the game in the hands of the scorekeeper. To do so only invites trouble. The scorekeepers generally do NOT know the rules. Officials should not expect them to do everything right.
As the Referee, I would take responsibility for the situation and handle the issue under 2-3.

Yes, that means that I'm assessing the technical foul when I learn about what the scorekeeper did.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

The Referee should never leave the game in the hands of the scorekeeper. To do so only invites trouble. The scorekeepers generally do NOT know the rules. Officials should not expect them to do everything right.
As the Referee, I would take responsibility for the situation and handle the issue under 2-3.

Yes, that means that I'm assessing the technical foul when I learn about what the scorekeeper did.

Nevada, how do you invoke 2-3 when the issue is clearly addressed by the rules?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Nevada, how do you invoke 2-3 when the issue is clearly addressed by the rules?

10.1.2 Situation: (a) Three minutes prior to the start of the game; or (b) during a time-out in the second quarter of play, the Team B coach requests the scorer to add a name to the team list or change a team member’s number in the scorebook. When is the penalty invoked for this administrative infraction? Ruling:The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize.

Penalized when they occur, after ten minute time limit. The infraction occurs when the scorer is advised to add to or change the scorebook. The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize. A maximum of one technical foul per team regardless of the number of infractions for 2a, 3a, 3b, 3c, 4a: a) A team shall not add a name to the team member list after the ten minute time limit. Team technical foul. When such a player legally enters the court, the player’s name, and number, must be entered into the scorebook.

Thanks for the help guys, but, I'm still confused. This is giving me a headache. I'm going to bed. Goodnight.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by zm1283

NFHS 10-1-2b Penalized when it occurs. May not be penalized after the ball has become live.

So, it's too late to penalize? No penalty, for the rest of the game, because he's already in the book?

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

So, it's too late to penalize? No penalty, for the rest of the game, because he's already in the book?

Well when this happened to me a few weeks ago we penalized it when we discovered it, even after the ball had become live. Of course I hadn't read the clarification that you couldn't penalize after the ball becomes live.

So, no I don't believe there is anything you can do once he's in the book and the ball becomes live. If there is, someone please let me know where to find it.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Nevada, how do you invoke 2-3 when the issue is clearly addressed by the rules?

Really?

There's a rule/casebook ruling that clearly addresses what to do when the scorer makes changes to the book and doesn't inform the floor officials until later? Could you please point it out me?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

There's a rule/casebook ruling that clearly addresses what to do when the scorer makes changes to the book and doesn't inform the floor officials until later? Could you please point it out me?

Me too. Please. Seriously. It would make my job of developing this study guide a lot more easier. I want to finish this project, hopefully this week.

My research of both the rulebook, and the casebook, has found this language, "The foul must be charged when it occurs and enforced when the ball next becomes live. Once the ball has become live, it is too late to penalize.", associated with these infractions:
- add a name to the team member list.
- require the scorer to change a team member, or player number, in the scorebook.
- require a player to change to a number in the scorebook change a designated starter.

And this language, "If it was not recognized by either official, but was called to their attention after the ball became live following the first dead ball, it is too late to assess any penalty.", associated with this infraction:
- have more than five team members participating simultaneously.

And this language, "Charged if recognized by an official before the ball becomes live following the first dead ball. Once the ball becomes live, the substitute is a legal player at that point, the foul is not penalized.", associated with this infraction:
- substitute shall not enter the court without reporting to the scorer; and without being beckoned by an official.

Yet, we all can't seem to agree on the enforcement of these time limits? Why not? Would it be easier for us if I asked for input on these penalties if I was asking strictly for help in taking a written, "by rule" exam, not taking into account "intent and purpose" of the rule? Were these infractions always this hard to enforce, or have the penalties changed that much in the past twenty-seven years?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Really?

There's a rule/casebook ruling that clearly addresses what to do when the scorer makes changes to the book and doesn't inform the floor officials until later? Could you please point it out me?

It clearly states 10-2a and 10-2e are to be penalized when discovered. It also clearly states 10-2b, c, and d are to be penalized when they occur.

"Once the ball becomes live, it is too late to penalize" is pretty clear. Now, if you can think of another instance when this might come into effect, other than when the scorer does it without telling you, I'm listening.

If the committee wanted us to be able to penalize this whenever we discovered it, they would have said penalized when discovered. How much more clarity do we need?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It clearly states 10-2a and 10-2e are to be penalized when discovered. It also clearly states 10-2b, c, and d are to be penalized when they occur. If the committee wanted us to be able to penalize this whenever we discovered it, they would have said penalized when discovered. How much more clarity do we need?

This sounds real, real, real, good to me, and might be something for me to, "hang my hat on", when I finally finish my study guide. Thanks.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

This sounds real, real, real, good to me, and might be something for me to, "hang my hat on", when I finally finish my study guide. Thanks.

You can hang your hat on whatever you wish, but I'm not going to allow the home coach and scorekeeper to cheat the visiting team. NO WAY!

The rules are not written to cover any and all circumstances which can be imagined. They are written with the assumption that all else is normal and that there are no complicating factors. When that is not true, then the authority of the Referee has to take over. That's why 2-3 is in the book.

[Adam]

Fair enough, but what circumstance do you see where it would be legitimately too late to penalize on this? When the home scorer changes for the visiting team?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Fair enough, but what circumstance do you see where it would be legitimately too late to penalize on this? When the home scorer changes for the visiting team?

To make it easier for you to answer, pretend you're in a room taking a NFHS, or in my case, an IAABO, closed book, timed, written test, and you're not on the court in a real game, with intent and purpose, etc. Remember, I'm making this study guide for my training committee, for officials who are about to take the written test, not the floor exam, that's a different subcommittee.