Scorekeeper interrupts

[rsl]

Since I'm a newbie and ref mostly Soph/JV, I often have untrained student scorekeepers, and they sometimes (several times last year) blow the horn during a live ball, for example

1) while the shooter has the ball during a free throw
2) While the thrower has the ball at his disposal during a throw in
3) during live play

When the horn blows, In (1) the shooters rhythm is interrupted, and in (2) or (3) we often have half the players stop. Should we always immediately stop play?

[BillyMac]

Great question newbie. Welcome to the Forum. Tough question. No easy answer, but I'll give it a try.

When the shooter has the ball during a free throw, and when the thrower has the ball at his disposal during a throw in, are both situations where the clock is stopped, and although its not a dead ball situation, it's a "dead time" situation, where I would have no problem blowing my whistle, taking the ball back from the free thrower, or the thrower, and checking with the scorekeeper to see what the problem is. This way you can potentially avoid a "deadly" correctable error situation.

On the other hand if the free thrower has already started his shooting motion, but the ball is not in flight, then it becomes more difficult. I'm not going to use the word disconcertion here, but if the horn did any kind of "disconcertioning", then you may want to blow the whistle, making the ball dead, and deal with the problem at the table. The only problem here would be if the player continued to shoot the ball during the whistle. The whistle made the ball dead, so you can't count it if it went in. I don't believe that continuous motion applies here. You could count it if it was already in flight when you blew the whistle. It would probably be better to wait until the ball is in flight, and then blow the whistle. If it goes in, it can be counted. If it doesn't go in, then you can invoke NFHS 2-3: The referee shall make decisions on any points not specifically covered in the rules, and, after you deal with the problem at the table, give the shooter another shot, basing the replay on the horn "disconcertioning" the shooter. If the throw in had already occurred, I would wait to see the result of the throwin before you blow the whistle (see below).

During "live play", assuming you mean a live ball, clock ticking situation, it becomes more of a "gray area" decision. If a player is simply dribbling around, not being closely guarded, then I would think it would be alright to stop play to check with the scorekeeper. If, however, a player is making a move to the basket, or being closely guarded, or trapped, or a fast break is in progress, then I would hold off until a dead ball, like immediately after a made basket, or until there's a "lull" in the action.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. Not only do I play a referee on television, I'm also a real referee, who slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[truerookie]

Like BM stated good question:

I would use these type of situations to briefly talk over the duties and responsibilities with the youngsters. ( Enhance learning opportunity for game management perspective). They are learning the trade of being a scorekeeper and may not know exactly when to get the attention of the officials. The difference between live and dead ball situations.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by truerookie

Like BM stated good question:

I would use these type of situations to briefly talk over the duties and responsibilities with the youngsters. ( Enhance learning opportunity for game management perspective). They are learning the trade of being a scorekeeper and may not know exactly when to get the attention of the officials. The difference between live and dead ball situations.

TrueRookie:

Are you describing BillyMac as a "BM"? I sure hope not.

MTD, Sr.

[Freddy]

In response to similar situations we face when doing Middle School games before the high school seasons start around here, I sought the insights of the members of this board and complied two simple, one-page guides for the scorekeeper and timekeeper to read through before the game. You could almost call these "Timekeeping and Scorekeeping for Dummies", but I wouldn't want to insult the youngsters or new adults who are, as you have stated, "in training" for these important tasks.
The NFHS has instructions that are available on their website. They are fine and good, but very detailed and somewhat a challenge for a newbie to go through right before a game. I also leave these NFHS pages with them to take home so they can study and get better for the next time.
I'll post what I came up with after this, that way others can add their constructive criticisms for the sake of improving the documents.

[Freddy]

SOME TIPS TO TIMEKEEPERS

Start the clock when you see the administering referee's hand signal for time to be started (his/her upraised hand drops downward). If for some reason he/she does not give the "time in" signal, start the clock when the ball, in your opinion, becomes in play. He/she should give the signal to start the clock when a throw-in is legally touched by a player in-bounds, when a jumper touches a tossed ball, when a free-throw rebound touches a player in-bounds, or when play is to be continued after some sort of interruption.

Stop the clock when you hear an official's whistle, or if it's too loud to hear his/her whistle, when his hand(s) go into the air with either an open hand, a closed fist, or a "jump ball" signal.

Especially in a close game with time running out, be particularly observant to start and stop the clock on the officials' whistle and hand signals.

Do not change the alternating possession arrow until the official's hand drops to signal the clock to start after a throw-in. The arrow doesn't officially change until then.

Do not change the number of team fouls until after a foul is reported by the official to the table. Confirm the number of team fouls (and player fouls if they are registered on the scoreboard) with the official scorer keeping the book after each foul reported.

Especially in a close game, confirm the score you have on the scoreboard with that of the official scorer keeping the book.

Sound the horn to signal "ready for play" with 15 seconds left after any timeout, after a coach's substitution for a disqualified player, and after any intermission period.

If, for some reason, the horn does not sound to end a period of play, be ready to help the floor officials if they ask if you have definitive information whether a basket is to be scored or not.


SOME TIPS TO SCOREKEEPERS

Especially for high school level games, each team's players must all be entered in the book along with five designated starters from each team by 10 minutes before game time. Notify the referee if this is not done by that time. (This is true for sub-level games also, but concessions are often made due to schedule, arrival of the visiting team, and the short time given between games.)

Confirm the number of personal and team fouls with the secondary book at the table if there is one and with the timer keeping the scoreboard.

Keep a running account of the score at the top of the scorebook after each basket, then register who scored and how many points were scored after that. Confirm the score you have on the running account with the timer keeping the scoreboard after each basket.

Notify the timer to sound the horn during a dead ball if there is a situation which demands the attention of the officials on the floor.

If a player attempts to enter the game without a proper number recorded in the scorebook, ask the timer to sound the horn before play is about to start and signal a floor official to come to the table so you can bring this to his/her attention.

After an official reports a foul to the table, visibly signal the number of free throws to be administered if it is a bonus one-and-one or two-shot situation.

Should a coach question something in the official scorebook, ask the timer to sound the horn at the next dead ball and beckon a floor official to the table to consider the question.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

TrueRookie: Are you describing BillyMac as a "BM"? I sure hope not. MTD, Sr.

Touché. I had that coming. What took you so long? Or maybe you were trying to be like Cato, Inspector Clouseau's house boy in the "Pink Panther", who unexpectedly attacks Clouseau, to keep Clouseau's combat skills and vigilance sharp?

[BillyMac]

Freddy: Well done. I agree that the information from the NFHS for timers, and scorekeepers, is too detailed for a middle school scorekeeper, and timer, who may only get a few minutes of instruction.

One question regarding: "Notify the timer to sound the horn during a dead ball if there is a situation which demands the attention of the officials on the floor". Are you sure that a middle school scorer, or timer, knows what a dead ball is, for example the dead ball that occurs after every made basket, or free throw, until the opponent has the ball at their disposal? Or that the ball may not be dead just because the clock is stopped, as in a free throw, or throwin, that is at the disposal of the thrower.

P.S. I love those "Dummies" books. I have several of them. Wait a minute. I think that I've shared too much information, and provided some ammunition to other Forum members.

[eyezen]

Originally Posted by Freddy

[snip]

SOME TIPS TO SCOREKEEPERS

Especially for high school level games, each team's players must all be entered in the book along with five designated starters from each team by 10 minutes before game time. Notify the referee if this is not done by that time. (This is true for sub-level games also, but concessions are often made due to schedule, arrival of the visiting team, and the short time given between games.)

[/snip]

This is not true. The roster and designated starters must be given to the scorekeeper by 10 minutes, not necessarily entered into the official scorebook. NF 3-2-1

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by eyezen

The roster and designated starters must be given to the scorekeeper by 10 minutes, not necessarily entered into the official scorebook. NF 3-2-1

Good catch. How about checking out my Adminsitrative Technical Foul Penalty "Study Guide"? Please.

Administrative Technical Fouls Study Guide ...

[Freddy]

BM and Eizen,
Thank you for your helpful reactions and insights. I will revise the documents accordingly.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

TrueRookie:

Are you describing BillyMac as a "BM"? I sure hope not.

MTD, Sr.

Nah, I made an attempt to shorten his name and it may appear to be stating something else. So for the record, I will completely spell out BM as BillyMac

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by truerookie

I will completely spell BillyMac

"Ahh, ya doesn't has to call me BillyMac! You can call me Ray, or you can call me Jay, or you can call me Johnny or you can call me Sonny, or you can call me RayJay, or you can call me RJ... but ya doesn't hafta call me BillyMac"

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by rsl

Since I'm a newbie and ref mostly Soph/JV, I often have untrained student scorekeepers, and they sometimes (several times last year) blow the horn during a live ball, for example

1) while the shooter has the ball during a free throw
2) While the thrower has the ball at his disposal during a throw in
3) during live play

When the horn blows, In (1) the shooters rhythm is interrupted, and in (2) or (3) we often have half the players stop. Should we always immediately stop play?

No, you should follow the instructions in the Case Book.

SCORER’S SIGNAL

2.11.3 SITUATION:

When may the scorer signal? RULING: If the scorer desires
to call attention to a player who is illegally in the game, he/she may signal the official
when the ball is in control of that player’s team. If it is for a substitution, the
scorer may signal when the ball next becomes dead and the clock is stopped. If
it is for conferring with an official, he/she may signal when the ball is dead. If the
scorer signals while the ball is live, the official should ignore the signal if a
scoring play is in progress. Otherwise, the official may stop play to determine the
reason for the scorer’s signal.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

No, you should follow the instructions in the Case Book.

Great citation.