Proper Mechanic

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Just the successful goal.

So here's what doesn't make sense to me.

I've always been told that the mirror mechanic is for the benefit of the scorekeeper and the benches, since the lead is often buried in the baseline and hard to see.

If we mirror the successful goal, why don't we also mirror the attempt so that the scorekeeper (for the sake of stat-keeping) and the bench can know that it's a three-point attempt?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by fiasco

So here's what doesn't make sense to me.

I've always been told that the mirror mechanic is for the benefit of the scorekeeper and the benches, since the lead is often buried in the baseline and hard to see.

If we mirror the successful goal, why don't we also mirror the attempt so that the scorekeeper (for the sake of stat-keeping) and the bench can know that it's a three-point attempt?

The attempt isn't as important as the made goal, from a scorekeeping standpoint. That's why only the made goal is mirrored, to make sure the scorekeepper sees it.

The official that has on-ball coverage knows whether it's a 3-point attempt or not, so if both officials signal the attempt, who's watching off-ball?

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by fiasco

So here's what doesn't make sense to me.

I've always been told that the mirror mechanic is for the benefit of the scorekeeper and the benches, since the lead is often buried in the baseline and hard to see.

If we mirror the successful goal, why don't we also mirror the attempt so that the scorekeeper (for the sake of stat-keeping) and the bench can know that it's a three-point attempt?

I've done stat keeping for D1 basketball. From my experience, the stats crews generally have an idea of who's call it is. I don't think it's really a problem to be honest.

-Josh

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by jdmara

I've done stat keeping for D1 basketball. From my experience, the stats crews generally have an idea of who's call it is. I don't think it's really a problem to be honest.

-Josh

It is not about knowledge of the table people, it is about who are the table likely to see. Usually the Lead official is not the most likely person to be seen. The idea is to have the Trail (and Center in 3) that is easier to see to always mirror or signal the good three point attempt. And if the Lead is looking a three point shots attempt, they are not likely looking at the things going on in their area. The Lead has most of the players in their primary.

Peace

Originally Posted by fiasco

If we mirror the successful goal, why don't we also mirror the attempt...

I run across many officials with this same thought. Many are under the impression that signaling the "attempt" is just that, but that signal also indicates that you have the shooter up & down (one foot). So in a 2 person game if both officials have the attempt, who's watching off-ball where 70 - 80% of the action takes place?
Even in a 3 person game, when 2 official are signaling the attempt, someone should recognize that, drop their hand & officiate elsewhere.

[fiasco]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

I run across many officials with this same thought. Many are under the impression that signaling the "attempt" is just that, but that signal also indicates that you have the shooter up & down (one foot). So in a 2 person game if both officials have the attempt, who's watching off-ball where 70 - 80% of the action takes place?
Even in a 3 person game, when 2 official are signaling the attempt, someone should recognize that, drop their hand & officiate elsewhere.

I'm not saying that the Trail has the shooter. I'm just saying you can watch your area, know what's going on there, and also see your partner signal the attempt.

Signaling the attempt does not necessarily mean you're not watching your primary.

[SmokeEater]

This is an interesting discussion and I am not saying I agree it comes down to an area association requirement.
One thing I do believe is the Lead should be signalling an attempt from the corner, mirrored by the lead and the lead picks up the shot and signals the good basket if it scores. The lead "should not" be responsible for watching if the basket goes in. They should be watching rebounders and/or staying withthe shooter.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SmokeEater

This is an interesting discussion and I am not saying I agree it comes down to an area association requirement.
One thing I do believe is the Lead should be signalling an attempt from the corner, mirrored by the lead and the lead picks up the shot and signals the good basket if it scores. The lead "should not" be responsible for watching if the basket goes in. They should be watching rebounders and/or staying withthe shooter.

The Lead does not need to know the shot goes in, that becomes rather obvious after a second or two, by the way the players react to the ball and how the ball comes through the net. This is not like a foul where you might have to watch players come to the floor. The players most of all tell you if the ball goes in. Actually, the Lead might be watching the shooter and the Trail will watch the rebounding.

Peace

Originally Posted by fiasco

Signaling the attempt does not necessarily mean you're not watching your primary.

If you're signaling the attempt (got the shooter up & down) which is NOT in your PCA, how could you possibly referee your PCA to the best of your abilities?
Even if there is no competitive match-ups in your PCA when the shot goes up, do we really need to extend in the direction of the shooter?
Extending to the rebounding area of the court would be wiser IMHO...

I'm not speaking on fast break situations, just typical half-court settings.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by fiasco

I'm not saying that the Trail has the shooter. I'm just saying you can watch your area, know what's going on there, and also see your partner signal the attempt.

Signaling the attempt does not necessarily mean you're not watching your primary.

But, that is what the signal means - that official is watching the shooter. If I see two officials signal a 3-point attempt, I know two officials are watching the ball. It is the same reason you will not see 2 officials with a closely-guarded count. That signal is for the on-ball official.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

But, that is what the signal means - that official is watching the shooter. If I see two officials signal a 3-point attempt, I know two officials are watching the ball. It is the same reason you will not see 2 officials with a closely-guarded count. That signal is for the on-ball official.

Agreed. You can get teh same thing in 3-person -- if both the T and the C indicate the attempt, the crew gets downgraded.

[mj]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Even in a 3 person game, when 2 official are signaling the attempt, someone should recognize that, drop their hand & officiate elsewhere.

Ahh yes, mj's pet peeve #86. I pre-game this almost every game I do 3 person. If both the C and the T mark a three pointer, the C should drop it and focus on the flight of the shot and then rebounders. The T then stays with the shooter.

Originally Posted by mj

Ahh yes, mj's pet peeve #86. I pre-game this almost every game I do 3 person. If both the C and the T mark a three pointer, the C should drop it and focus on the flight of the shot and then rebounders. The T then stays with the shooter.

Not true... I think the official whose PCA the shot is attempted from should stay & the other official should drop & look elsewhere.

In your above description, if the shot is from the Cs PCA, but the T & C both have the attempt, then the T should find something else to referee.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Not true... I think the official whose PCA the shot is attempted from should stay & the other official should drop & look elsewhere.

There will always be plays that are in BOTH PCAs....player has one foot in each. There will always be situations where the officials will double signal legitimately....no way around it.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

There will always be plays that are in BOTH PCAs....player has one foot in each. There will always be situations where the officials will double signal legitimately....no way around it.

No doubt, when the shot comes from a grey area perhaps two officials hands will initially go up for the attempt. But the people I work for expect officials to be cognizant when a partner is already officiating that play, drop it & referee elsewhere.