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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 25, 2008, 07:18pm
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Last Second Bench T

I'm asking someone to climb up into MTD's attic and find the case play / interp regarding a player coming off the bench in the last second and stopping / blocking a last second 3-point try. As I recall, the FED issued an interp allowing us to call two Ts on team B (or the player), thus giving Team A a chance to win/ tie the game.

Thanks.
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Old Sat Oct 25, 2008, 07:25pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I'm asking someone to climb up into MTD's attic and find the case play / interp regarding a player coming off the bench in the last second and stopping / blocking a last second 3-point try. As I recall, the FED issued an interp allowing us to call two Ts on team B (or the player), thus giving Team A a chance to win/ tie the game.

Thanks.
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Old Sat Oct 25, 2008, 07:27pm
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I don't have the interp...

but, it seems to me I remember us talking about this situation, here on the forum, a while back.

Didn't we agree that the player coming off the bench could receive a T for the very least:
1) not properly being beckoned
2) to many players on the court

and
3) a flagrant unsportsmanlike conduct penalty for checking the other player's shot.
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Old Sat Oct 25, 2008, 07:54pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I'm asking someone to climb up into MTD's attic and find the case play / interp regarding a player coming off the bench in the last second and stopping / blocking a last second 3-point try. As I recall, the FED issued an interp allowing us to call two Ts on team B (or the player), thus giving Team A a chance to win/ tie the game.

Thanks.
Our interpreter brought this same play up this week at our meeting. It is on the RefSchool program. He had had a back and forth with our state office on it and finally e-mailed Indy and the NFHS was a ruling. The NFHS replied with 2 Ts. One of leaving the bench and one for unsportsmanlike conduct.

Seemed like a reasonable ruling to me since it gives A a chance to win/tie.
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Old Sat Oct 25, 2008, 08:30pm
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hmmm...Would one of the T's be three shots since they illegally nullified a 3-point attempt? This play is crazy lol

-Josh
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Old Sat Oct 25, 2008, 09:17pm
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Originally Posted by jdmara View Post
hmmm...Would one of the T's be three shots since they illegally nullified a 3-point attempt? This play is crazy lol

-Josh
There's no basis for that.
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Old Sat Oct 25, 2008, 09:19pm
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I seem to recall this showing up in the interps in the last 2-3 years. Maybe I'm on drugs, but that's what I recall.
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Old Sat Oct 25, 2008, 09:49pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I'm asking someone to climb up into MTD's attic and find the case play / interp regarding a player coming off the bench in the last second and stopping / blocking a last second 3-point try. As I recall, the FED issued an interp allowing us to call two Ts on team B (or the player), thus giving Team A a chance to win/ tie the game.

Thanks.

Bob:

I am curious. Why, pray tell, are you asking about a third world (I think that is what Carl Childress calls thm in baseball) play like this one?

I think I remember this play being discussed in this forum years ago, but I do not recall what the NFHS ruling was, BUT, I cannot imagine the NFHS would issue a ruling that would allow two TF's on this play. While we have a number of infractions: (1) B6 entering the court without being beckoned; (2) six (6) players on the court; or (3) flagrant unsportsmanlike conduct byB6.

Here is my observations and musings about this play. My first musing is that there is a NFHS Casebook Play that is similar to this play: A1 is dribbling toward Team A's basket for an uncontested layup when HC-B commits an unsportsmanlike act. The rules state that the unless continuous motion is involved the ball becomes dead the the clock if running shall be stopped when the TF is committed by HC-B. But, in this play, the covering official shall hold his whistle until A1 has releases the ball for his field goal attempt before sounding his whistle to stop the clock and charging HC-B with a TF for unsportsmanlike conduct. I guess, for the lack of a better description, one could call this a foul during "delayed continuous motion."

My first question about this play is: Let us assume that the game officials do not see B6 enter the court and B6 proceeds to block A1's three-point field goal attempt: (a) B6's block occured in the middle of the quarter or (b) B6's block was of a last second shoot? The officials do not discover that Team B is playing with six players until after B6's block of A1's field goal attempt. B6 entered the court unbeckoned by an official. But the only penalty that can be applied is a TF charged to Team B for having six players on the court.

At this point I am going to make my post because The Ohio State University Buckeyes are losing to The Pennsylvania State University 10-6 late in the fourth quarter and I really cannot concentrate on this post, but I hope that this will start a discussion on this play.

MTD, Sr.

P.S. Go Bucks.
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Old Sun Oct 26, 2008, 04:03am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins View Post
I'm asking someone to climb up into MTD's attic and find the case play / interp regarding a player coming off the bench in the last second and stopping / blocking a last second 3-point try. As I recall, the FED issued an interp allowing us to call two Ts on team B (or the player), thus giving Team A a chance to win/ tie the game.

Thanks.
You can ignore everything that MTD just posted. He is incorrect.
2005-06 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 12: Team B has just scored to go up by three points with time running out in the fourth quarter. Player A1 inbounds the ball to A2 close to the sideline of Team B's bench. A2 releases a three-point try just prior to the horn sounding. Substitute B7 leaves the bench area, enters the court and blocks the shot. RULING: B7 shall be charged with two technical fouls and ejected. One technical foul is assessed for entering the court without permission and one for unsporting conduct. Any member of Team A may shoot the four free throws for the technical fouls. The results of these free throws will determine if the game is over or going into overtime. COMMENT: Two technical fouls must be assessed in this situation. Otherwise, the team committing the infraction would benefit from the act. (10-4-1; 10-4-2)
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Old Sun Oct 26, 2008, 09:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
2005-06 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 12: Team B has just scored to go up by three points with time running out in the fourth quarter. Player A1 inbounds the ball to A2 close to the sideline of Team B's bench. A2 releases a three-point try just prior to the horn sounding. Substitute B7 leaves the bench area, enters the court and blocks the shot. RULING: B7 shall be charged with two technical fouls and ejected. One technical foul is assessed for entering the court without permission and one for unsporting conduct. Any member of Team A may shoot the four free throws for the technical fouls. The results of these free throws will determine if the game is over or going into overtime. COMMENT: Two technical fouls must be assessed in this situation. Otherwise, the team committing the infraction would benefit from the act. (10-4-1; 10-4-2)
Great citation. I'm curious. Why wouldn't there be a third technical foul charged to Team B for having more than five team members participating simultaneously? I'm sure that the head coach of Team A could argue that his, or her, team should get six foul shots, not only four, thus giving his, or her, team a better chance to win the game, or send it into overtime.

Nevadaref: This interpretation is three years old. How do you keep coming up with these? I'm lucky if I remembered what I had for dinner last night. Now that Jurassic Referee, and ChuckElias, have "left the building", I hope that you decide to stick around a while.

Also. We can't ignore "everything" that Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. posts. After all, he is the one who suggested to Dr. Naismith that he use a peach basket instead of the good Doctor's original idea of using an Easter basket. I understand that Dr. Naismith loved those pink, marshmallow, Peeps chicks.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Oct 26, 2008 at 11:16am.
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Old Sun Oct 26, 2008, 11:41am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
You can ignore everything that MTD just posted. He is incorrect.
2005-06 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 12: Team B has just scored to go up by three points with time running out in the fourth quarter. Player A1 inbounds the ball to A2 close to the sideline of Team B's bench. A2 releases a three-point try just prior to the horn sounding. Substitute B7 leaves the bench area, enters the court and blocks the shot. RULING: B7 shall be charged with two technical fouls and ejected. One technical foul is assessed for entering the court without permission and one for unsporting conduct. Any member of Team A may shoot the four free throws for the technical fouls. The results of these free throws will determine if the game is over or going into overtime. COMMENT: Two technical fouls must be assessed in this situation. Otherwise, the team committing the infraction would benefit from the act. (10-4-1; 10-4-2)
What if on the attempted block B7 fouls A2?
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Old Sun Oct 26, 2008, 01:44pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
You can ignore everything that MTD just posted. He is incorrect.
2005-06 NFHS Basketball Rules Interpretations

SITUATION 12: Team B has just scored to go up by three points with time running out in the fourth quarter. Player A1 inbounds the ball to A2 close to the sideline of Team B's bench. A2 releases a three-point try just prior to the horn sounding. Substitute B7 leaves the bench area, enters the court and blocks the shot. RULING: B7 shall be charged with two technical fouls and ejected. One technical foul is assessed for entering the court without permission and one for unsporting conduct. Any member of Team A may shoot the four free throws for the technical fouls. The results of these free throws will determine if the game is over or going into overtime. COMMENT: Two technical fouls must be assessed in this situation. Otherwise, the team committing the infraction would benefit from the act. (10-4-1; 10-4-2)

NevadaRef:

Thanks for digging out the Play. I am getting lazy in my old age, . I wasn't sure as to when B6 entered the court in relation to the shot.

MTD, Sr.
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Old Sun Oct 26, 2008, 01:53pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
Great citation. I'm curious. Why wouldn't there be a third technical foul charged to Team B for having more than five team members participating simultaneously?
I realize this would be piling on, but - could the B Head Coach get an indirect T as the player's T's pertain to Bench Personnel?
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Old Sun Oct 26, 2008, 03:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grunewar View Post
I realize this would be piling on, but - could the B Head Coach get an indirect T as the player's T's pertain to Bench Personnel?
That player is bench personnel, so the T's would also be indirects. But, of course, there are no shots for those.
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Old Sun Oct 26, 2008, 03:42pm
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I've got a player entering without beckoning; not an indirect.
I've got 6 players playing; not an indirect.

The interp has one for entering without permission, same as my first. Not an indirect.
They have the 2nd as unsportsmanlike conduct. This would be an indirect if you still consider this player to be "bench" personnel.
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