Fight on the Bench

[BoomerSooner]

The earlier thread concering leaving the bench during a fight got me to thinking about a situation that happened last season and how it should be enforced.

During a game, we had a player (we'll call him A6) on the bench begin taunting B1 following an airball 3pt shot from right in front of the bench. Before I could put a halt to it B1 fires a fist right into the side of A6's face. A6 ends up on the ground bleeding while A7 decides to retaliate wth a punch of his own. Not to be undone B2 jumps into the mess and decides to punch A7 and kick A6 who is on the ground.

By this point I've decided I'm not getting anywhere near the action and step back to take numbers and I motion for B's coach to help settle the situation. A's coach directs the rest of his bench to get away from the fight and begins trying to break up the 4 players involved in the fight. Considering the fight is on the bench, the remaining players for A moved toward the baseline, but onto the court. B3 who was not originally in the fight now decides to punch A8 who is now on the court avoiding the fight. My P jumps inbetween that situation before any retaliation can be taken by A8 or any other team members of A. Coaches finally get things settled and we are left to sort out the situation.

Between the two of us, we decide that A6, A7, B1, B2, and B3 were all considered to have participated in a fight and were thus ejected. We resumed play with 2 FT's for A and A's ball at mid-court. Remarkably nobody came off the bench for B and we didn't penalize A for the players that left the bench to avoid the fight. The part that was interesting about this story, however, was that B's coach wanted each of A's bench players that left the bench to avoid the fight to be ejected saying that if they had stayed put B3 wouldn't have gotten ejected (so in addition to A6 and A7, he wanted the other 6 bench players ejected blaming them for the actions of B3).

We laughed about it in the locker room afterwards, but with the clarification that simply leaving the bench regardless of participation in the fight, would anyone even consider taking the rule to its most literal interp and agree with B's coach in my case?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BoomerSooner

The earlier thread concering leaving the bench during a fight got me to thinking about a situation that happened last season and how it should be enforced.

During a game, we had a player (we'll call him A6) on the bench begin taunting B1 following an airball 3pt shot from right in front of the bench. Before I could put a halt to it B1 fires a fist right into the side of A6's face. A6 ends up on the ground bleeding while A7 decides to retaliate wth a punch of his own. Not to be undone B2 jumps into the mess and decides to punch A7 and kick A6 who is on the ground.

By this point I've decided I'm not getting anywhere near the action and step back to take numbers and I motion for B's coach to help settle the situation. A's coach directs the rest of his bench to get away from the fight and begins trying to break up the 4 players involved in the fight. Considering the fight is on the bench, the remaining players for A moved toward the baseline, but onto the court. B3 who was not originally in the fight now decides to punch A8 who is now on the court avoiding the fight. My P jumps inbetween that situation before any retaliation can be taken by A8 or any other team members of A. Coaches finally get things settled and we are left to sort out the situation.

Between the two of us, we decide that A6, A7, B1, B2, and B3 were all considered to have participated in a fight and were thus ejected. We resumed play with 2 FT's for A and A's ball at mid-court. Remarkably nobody came off the bench for B and we didn't penalize A for the players that left the bench to avoid the fight. The part that was interesting about this story, however, was that B's coach wanted each of A's bench players that left the bench to avoid the fight to be ejected saying that if they had stayed put B3 wouldn't have gotten ejected (so in addition to A6 and A7, he wanted the other 6 bench players ejected blaming them for the actions of B3).

We laughed about it in the locker room afterwards, but with the clarification that simply leaving the bench regardless of participation in the fight, would anyone even consider taking the rule to its most literal interp and agree with B's coach in my case?

1. I do not agree with the coach. The intent of the rule about not leaving the bench is to prevent a team member from entering the area of the altercation, not from vacating such an area. What the team members from the Team A bench did in this case was to the benefit of their safety and to prevent more problems. There is no way that I am going to penalize them for this.

2. However, I need to know whom A7 struck. I may not agree with the number of FTs that you awarded.

3. The flagrant Ts against A6 and B1 make a double foul and no FTs are awarded for that.

4. Dealing with the punches by A7 and B2 is more difficult. Unless they punched each other or punched opponents at approximately the same time, these fouls can't be considered a double foul or a simultaneous foul, thus I would penalize these fouls in the order of occurrence and award 2FTs to each team. If one punch followed the other and was clearly in retaliation, then this is definitely the way to go.

5. Lastly, two FTs are awarded to Team A for B3's punch at the end of everything, and obviously Team A gets the ball at the division line.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

4. Dealing with the punches by A7 and B2 is more difficult. Unless they punched each other or punched opponents at approximately the same time, these fouls can't be considered a double foul or a simultaneous foul, thus I would penalize these fouls in the order of occurrence and award 2FTs to each team. If one punch followed the other and was clearly in retaliation, then this is definitely the way to go.

Rules citation?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

4. Dealing with the punches by A7 and B2 is more difficult. Unless they punched each other or punched opponents at approximately the same time, these fouls can't be considered a double foul or a simultaneous foul, thus I would penalize these fouls in the order of occurrence and award 2FTs to each team. If one punch followed the other and was clearly in retaliation, then this is definitely the way to go.

I think the whole fight is treated as a "simultaneous" situation and offset each other (to the extent they are equal).

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

I think the whole fight is treated as a "simultaneous" situation and offset each other (to the extent they are equal).

NFHS rule 10-6PENALTIES(Rule 10 Summary)8b(2) seems to say exactly that:
Bench personnel leaving the team bench during a fight or when a fight may break out:
(2)"Participate in the fight-all participants are assessed flagrant personal fouls and disqualified. The head coach is assessed one indirect technical foul for each bench player participating in the fight. If the number of each's team's participants is corresponding, no free throws are awarded and the ball is put into play at the point of interruption. If the number of each team's participants is unequal, two free throws are awarded the offended team for each additional player, followed by a division line throw-in opposite the table".

There's no mention anywhere in there of the fighting participation fouls having to be against each other or occur simultaneously, as Nevada is recommending.

Note: Another question is how many indirect "T"s is each head coach assessed.

[bigdog5142]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Note: Another question is how many indirect "T"s is each head coach assessed.

Team A coach gets two indirect "T"s for A6 & A7 being bench players that actively participated in the fight. B Coach gets none as no bench players left the bench and no bench players actively participated in the fight.

I guess this would depend on whether or not A6 actively participated...getting punched isn't voluntary participation...unless you consider the original taunt as part of the fight...then it stands as I stated above. Had the bench players only entered the court and not participated, the coach for team A would get only one indirect "T" for bench players leaving the bench area. Active participation dictates an indirect "T" for each bench player involved. (At least that's what I remember reading...don't have the rulebook with me to confirm.)

[kbilla]

[QUOTE=bigdog5142]Team A coach gets two indirect "T"s for A6 & A7 being bench players that actively participated in the fight. B Coach gets none as no bench players left the bench and no bench players actively participated in the fight.

I guess this would depend on whether or not A6 actively participated...getting punched isn't voluntary participation...unless you consider the original taunt as part of the fight...

the original taunt is absolutely part of the fight as i interpret 4.18.2...an unsporting act that causes an opponent to retailiate by fighting is considered to be "participating in the fight"....the taunt is unsporting and the guy retaliated, so no brainer IMO...

[bigdog5142]

Yeah...you're probably right...I was thinking the same thing, but without being there...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by bigdog5142

I guess this would depend on whether or not A6 actively participated...getting punched isn't voluntary participation...unless you consider the original taunt as part of the fight...then it stands as I stated above.

A6 started the fight with the taunt. Whether he threw a punch or not isn't relevant. According to the rules(rule 4-18-2 and case book play 4.18.2), starting a fight by taunting IS regarded as fighting.

[kbilla]

Originally Posted by bigdog5142

Yeah...you're probably right...I was thinking the same thing, but without being there...

Yeah without being there it is tought to envision the totality of a crazy situation like that, but I would say A6 started it...just goes to show you, you have to be careful who you taunt, you never know who is nuts and ready to kill you for it!

[Nevadaref]

JR and Bob,
Did you notice that the two people that I am talking about are one player, B2, and one team member from the bench, A7.

Thus they fall into different categories for the fighting penalties. I know of nothing that allows us to cancel/offset penalties across categories for a fight, unless the fouls constitute a double foul or a simultaneous foul. That is why I am saying that they probably need to be penalized in the order in which they occurred.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

JR and Bob,
Did you notice that the two people that I am talking about are one player, B2, and one team member from the bench, A7.

Thus they fall into different categories for the fighting penalties. I know of nothing that allows us to cancel/offset penalties across categories for a fight, unless the fouls constitute a double foul or a simultaneous foul. That is why I am saying that they probably need to be penalized in the order in which they occurred.

OK, I see your point now. It does have some merit, but I don't think that I agree with you re: the purpose and intent of the rule. I also can't think of any rules language that will definitively prove either take as being right or wrong.

One for the rulesmakers that read this forum......

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

OK, I see your point now. It does have some merit, but I don't think that I agree with you re: the purpose and intent of the rule. I also can't think of any rules language that will definitively prove either take as being right or wrong.

One for the rulesmakers that read this forum......

I agree.

Now do we need to generate another 11 pages for them to notice this and make a ruling?

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

JR and Bob,
Did you notice that the two people that I am talking about are one player, B2, and one team member from the bench, A7.

Yes, I noticed.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Now do we need to generate another 11 pages .........

Willing to help generate if needed.