Hand checking

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by mick

From an old book Rules 2001-2002
POE 4. Handchecking, Rough play

A. Hands off

• Defenders are not permitted to have hands on the dribbler!
• No displacement of a cutter.
• The measuring up of an opponent (tagging) is hand-checking, is not permitted, and is a FOUL.
• Use of a forearm, regardless of the duration of thee contact is A FOUL.
• Hand-checking is not incidental contact; it gives a tremendous advantage to the person illegaly using their hands.
• This applies to both offensive and defensive players.
• Principles involved in incidental contact (Rule 4-27) apply!

Please note that the *Capitalization* and *Punctuation* is shown as written in the book.

That was my first year of officiating, so I probably wasn't paying too much attention to POE's. I do remember mention of forearms on the post players. But still, I do not see the phrase “Defenders are not permitted to have hands on the dribbler or offensive players away from the ball" in that POE.

[mick]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

That was my first year of officiating, so I probably wasn't paying too much attention to POE's. I do remember mention of forearms on the post players. But still, I do not see the phrase “Defenders are not permitted to have hands on the dribbler or offensive players away from the ball" in that POE.

Originally Posted by mick

From an old book Rules 2001-2002
POE 4. Handchecking, Rough play

A. Hands off

• Defenders are not permitted to have hands on the dribbler!
• No displacement of a cutter.
• The measuring up of an opponent (tagging) is hand-checking, is not permitted, and is a FOUL.
• Use of a forearm, regardless of the duration of thee contact is A FOUL.
• Hand-checking is not incidental contact; it gives a tremendous advantage to the person illegally using their hands.
• This applies to both offensive and defensive players.
• Principles involved in incidental contact (Rule 4-27) apply!

Please note that the *Capitalization* and *Punctuation* is shown as written in the book.

It's there, if you want it to be there, but we also apply steering, controlling, dsplacing, hampering, hindering.

[Terrapins Fan]

Originally Posted by jearef

I think the "powers that be" are of the opinion that we have allowed the principle of "advantage/disadvantage" to evolve far beyond its original intent. We have forgotten the admonition that contact which is likely to lead to rough play should always be penalized. Believing that uncalled handchecks are likely to lead to rough play, here is the advice we have been given in several clinics:

1. If the defender places his hand on the dribbler and leaves it there, it is a foul.

2. If the defender places two hands on the dribbler, it is a foul.

3. If the defender uses his hand to "re-route" the dribbler, it is a foul.

4. If the defender places a forearm on the dribbler, it is a foul.

5. If the defender uses "hot stove" touches on the dribbler, it is a foul.

We have been specifically advised that the former practice of ignoring a hand on a dribbler who is moving east/west should be discarded.

Our interpreter has said NO touching Zero.

[JRutledge]

I am glad I do not have your interpreter.

Peace

[mick]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I am glad I do not have your interpreter.

Peace

I agree, Rut.
That "interpreter" is doing an injustice to his officials, ... or there is more to his explanation than "NO touching Zero".

[IREFU2]

I see there are mixed feelings/options here about this topic. I like the NC2A-W POE this year on this:

Defense permitted one "hot-stove" touch. No arm-bars, no continual/continuous contact. No holding, reroutes or impedes with the body. Also, they speak about allowing "freedom of movement" as well.

I try to do as much preventive officiating before calling a hand-check. This is JMHO!!!!

[chartrusepengui]

I can see the 2001-2002 POE that was posted earlier - but - in the 2008-2009 POE this year the wording is different. I believe that there is additional guidance.

"Defenders are not permitted to have hands on the dribbler or offensive players away from the ball ............... Regardless of where it happens on the floor, when a player:
1. Continously places a hnad on the opposing player - it is a foul.
2. Places both hands on a player - it is a foul.
3. Continuously jabs a hand of forearm on an opponent - it is a foul."

This does not necessarily say that one "hot touch" to feel an opponent is a foul - as it is not continuous contact or continuous jabbing. JMO

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

I can see the 2001-2002 POE that was posted earlier - but - in the 2008-2009 POE this year the wording is different. I believe that there is additional guidance.

"Defenders are not permitted to have hands on the dribbler or offensive players away from the ball ............... Regardless of where it happens on the floor, when a player:
1. Continously places a hnad on the opposing player - it is a foul.

...

A defender in the post area and the offensive player is just standing there and the play is nowhere near? I will not be putting air in my whistle.

[Back In The Saddle]

It will be interesting to see how much actual change this POE affects. Allowing too much hands-on defense is, I think, a chronic problem in the game. But it's also become "part of the game" and it's often difficult to justify calling "minor" hand check fouls when the rest of the game is often more physical and more significant contact is routinely let pass because no advantage was gained.

I also agree that it's often very difficult to determine how much of an effect that hand on the offensive player is having. If it's allowed to remain on the dribbler, how can you tell with certainty when he's being redirected? Sure, sometimes it's obvious; quite often it's not.

That said, one of my mentors gave me this very pragmatic bit of advice: Call the handchecks on the dribbler early. You want to free up the point guard especially to run the offense. That will make you game go better.

Having tried it both ways, I have to say that freeing up the point guard does make the game better. Usually.

[mick]

Originally Posted by chartrusepengui

I can see the 2001-2002 POE that was posted earlier - but - in the 2008-2009 POE this year the wording is different. I believe that there is additional guidance.

"Defenders are not permitted to have hands on the dribbler or offensive players away from the ball ............... Regardless of where it happens on the floor, when a player:
1. Continously places a hnad on the opposing player - it is a foul.
2. Places both hands on a player - it is a foul.
3. Continuously jabs a hand of forearm on an opponent - it is a foul."

This does not necessarily say that one "hot touch" to feel an opponent is a foul - as it is not continuous contact or continuous jabbing. JMO

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

A defender in the post area and the offensive player is just standing there and the play is nowhere near? I will not be putting air in my whistle.

BadNewsRef,
In your scenario, I will be talkin' ["54. Keep your hands off that guy."], because I don't wanna be watching them all night and waiting for the "That's enough!" retaliatory hand slap.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by mick

BadNewsRef,
In your scenario, I will be talkin' ["54. Keep your hands off that guy."], because I don't wanna be watching them all night and waiting for the "That's enough!" retaliatory hand slap.

This usually happens when guards are hanging out down low, like in a stack offense where the guard starts on the block and then pops out. Big guys (i'm one) don't seem to have a problem with it. In fact bigs guys expect there to be someone touching them when they are in the paint area.

[chartrusepengui]

I agree with both Mick and BNR - my point was that the POE this year does NOT say that any touching with the hand is an immediate foul ....... "no touchinig - zero tolerance" I am always talking to the guys in the post "no hands", "hands off", "straight up" ........

[Man In Blue]

If we are going to call the arm bar and a quick hand check, we need to be prepared to call an offensive foul in the paint. Just saying...

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Man In Blue

If we are going to call the arm bar and a quick hand check, we need to be prepared to call an offensive foul in the paint. Just saying...

Why, do you not see this called?

[refnrev]

Originally Posted by Terrapins Fan

Our interpreter has said NO touching Zero.

____________________________

Sounds like a little overkill to me.