inadvertent whistle? pt. 2

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

Was the try released? Or was the shot blocked out of the shooter's hand?

Makes a big difference in this play.

Why does it make a difference?

The shot was blocked regardless and it was loose when the whistle is blown?

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Why does it make a difference? The shot was blocked regardless and it was loose when the whistle is blown?

If the shot was never released, then it's just like a defender knocking away the ball from a dribbler. The ball remains in team control until an opponent secures control, or the ball becomes dead. Most of us would assume, and usually be correct, that a shot was blocked after the release, but this may not necessarily always be true. The original post simply says "blocks the shot", not "blocks the shot after it's been released on a try". Picky? Yes. Relevant? In theory, I believe, yes.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If the shot was never released, then it's just like a defender knocking away the ball from a dribbler. The ball remains in team control until an opponent secures control, or the ball becomes dead. Most of us would assume, and usually be correct, that a shot was blocked after the release, but this may not necessarily always be true. The original post simply says "blocks the shot", not "blocks the shot after it's been released on a try". Picky? Yes. Relevant? In theory, I believe, yes.

ok I would not call this a continuation of team control, ever. This is known as microdoting which can just get you in trouble. If a player is going up for a shot and has it in one hand above his/her head in a "attempt" to release the ball on a shot and a defender knocks it away I am not going to microdot this play. it is blatantly obvious to everyone that the defender is getting his or her "shot" blocked. Save yourself the hassle and dont continue and deem this team control. IMO that is foolish and not common sense refereeing.

P.S. I have always been of the mindset that officiating is not a science, but instead an art. You can't make officiating scientific because it is impossible, due to the fact of human error and you can never take the human out of the equation. So in that regard don't make officiating a science but instead keep it an art by not trying to be sooooooooo exact that it gets you in trouble.

[BillyMac]

My recent post: "Most of us would assume, and usually be correct, that a shot was blocked after the release, but this may not necessarily always be true. The original post simply says "blocks the shot", not "blocks the shot after it's been released on a try". Picky? Yes. Relevant? In theory, I believe, yes."

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I would not call this a continuation of team control, ever. If a player is going up for a shot and has it in one hand above his/her head in an "attempt" to release the ball on a shot and a defender knocks it away I am not going to microdot this play. It is blatantly obvious to everyone that the defender is getting his or her "shot" blocked. Save yourself the hassle and don't continue and deem this team control. That is foolish and not common sense refereeing.

I agree with you that, what you call, "microdoting", and what many Forum members often refer to as, overly officious officiating, is not the way to realistically approach a live game. But in the context of a preseason rules interpretation question, definitions are very important, and should not be ignored, if only to emphasis how difficult it is to officiate a basketball game.

4-12- 3: Team control continues until: a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal. b. An opponent secures control. c. The ball becomes dead.

4-12-4: While the ball remains live a loose ball always remains in control of the team whose player last had control, unless it is a try or tap for goal.

4-12-6: Neither team control nor player control exists during a dead ball, throw-in, a jump ball or when the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.

4-41-1: The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne shooter.

4-41-2: A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand as a foul could prevent release of the ball.

4-41-3: The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

The highlighted parts of the above quoted rules deal with the difference between a try for goal, and the release of that try for goal. In a real game situation, I will concede to you that you can probably get away with calling a try for goal a loss of team control, however, in the context of an exam question, or when confronted with a situation where going to the arrow, as in the original post, occurs when there are only a few seconds left in the game, and the misapplication, in theory, of the rule causes a team to, by definition, incorrectly gain control of the ball, and score the winning basket, then an intelligent coach, athletic director, local cable television announcer, or local newspaper sports reporter, may put you in a situation where you have, as Ricky used to say to Lucy, "A lot of 'splaining to do" to your partner, evaluator, or assigner.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

ok I would not call this a continuation of team control, ever. This is known as microdoting which can just get you in trouble. If a player is going up for a shot and has it in one hand above his/her head in a "attempt" to release the ball on a shot and a defender knocks it away I am not going to microdot this play. it is blatantly obvious to everyone that the defender is getting his or her "shot" blocked. Save yourself the hassle and dont continue and deem this team control. IMO that is foolish and not common sense refereeing.

P.S. I have always been of the mindset that officiating is not a science, but instead an art. You can't make officiating scientific because it is impossible, due to the fact of human error and you can never take the human out of the equation. So in that regard don't make officiating a science but instead keep it an art by not trying to be sooooooooo exact that it gets you in trouble.

You're just wrong here. If the shot never gets released, team control never ends (4-12-3a); regardless of the common coach/fan speak. Getting a shot blocked can easily happen before the release; happens all the time. Team control is never lost. Save yourself the heartache of having to explain why you went with AP instead of giving it to the team that clearly still had control.

Parts of officiating are definitely an "art," but that doesn't give you an excuse to ignore plain and simple rules.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If the shot never gets released, it's never a shot.

Snaqwells: Be careful here. We don't want to confuse any rookies out there. If by shot, you mean, try for goal, then there is one exception to your statement, continous motion:

4-41-1: The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne shooter.
4-41-2: A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand as a foul could prevent release of the ball.
4-41-3: The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

I do agree with you about team control. If the ball is never released, then team control is not lost, as Scrapper1 implied a few post ago.

[Adam]

Good point, Billy. I've corrected the original.
I'll add that while the try may begin and end, if the ball is never in flight "during" the try, team control continues. A blocked shot is the perfect example of when a try may "end" even thought team control continues.

Rule 4-41-4: The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the try is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You're just wrong here. If the shot never gets released, team control never ends (4-12-3a); regardless of the common coach/fan speak. Getting a shot blocked can easily happen before the release; happens all the time. Team control is never lost. Save yourself the heartache of having to explain why you went with AP instead of giving it to the team that clearly still had control.
Parts of officiating are definitely an "art," but that doesn't give you an excuse to ignore plain and simple rules.

The heartache comes when you tell that coach that the team was still in team control even after she was taking the shot. Once again, this is mircrodoting and not a misapplication of the rules imo. if it is so close to leaving the players hand, as my sitch was, although i still believe it was in her hand, I'm not going to say there is still team control.

You guys have all provided me with rule book citations and after reading them and seeing how it could confuse people, coaches, and fans this needs to be changed. They need to separate team control into 2 categories:

-Team control which would be defined as a team being in control when a player is holding, dribbling, or passing the ball, but ends when the defensive team deflects the ball or a shot is attempted.

-Team Possession which would be defined as a team being in possession of the ball when they are holding, dribbling or passing the ball, but it ends when the defensive team gains possession or their is a field goal attempted.

So in other words you just revamp what team control is and add the term team possession. This would cause all deflected balls to have no team control and would keep teams from getting royally screwed on more than just inadvertent whistles, but for the sake of the thread, inadvertent whistles...

[BillyMac]

1) We told you who gets the ball in high school, as you asked. If the shooter released the ball, you go with the arrow, if she didn't release the ball, which is highly unlikely, but certainly possible, as Scrapper1 pointed out, the shooter's team gets the ball for a throwin at the closest spot.

2) If, as you state, "I still believe it was in her hand", the rule is quite clear; the shooter's team maintains team possession until an opponent secures control, or the ball becomes dead.

3) Your suggested rule changes certainly seem to be based on common sense, and they may someday be incorporated in the rule book, but as of 2008-09, they are not, and you can't go around making up your own interpretation when you disagree with a rule. This "not making it up as you go along philosophy" was a NFHS Point of Emphasis a few years ago.

4) Scrapper1: You've got a lot of nerve bringing up this highly unlikely scenario, and high tailing it, leaving it up to Snaqwells and me to pick up the pieces.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

The heartache comes when you tell that coach that the team was still in team control even after she was taking the shot. Once again, this is mircrodoting and not a misapplication of the rules imo. if it is so close to leaving the players hand, as my sitch was, although i still believe it was in her hand, I'm not going to say there is still team control.

And this is why I asked you about your "pro philosophy." You just don't understand what it is to be an official at a non-entertainment level.

In a REAL basketball game officials apply the rules, are willing to make the tough calls, and don't give a d@mn what the coach thinks about their decisions.

Here is an interp issued by the NFHS a couple of seasons ago on just such a play:

2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS

SITUATION 5:
At the top of the key, A1 beats B1 off the dribble, reaches
the free-throw line, and pulls up for a jump shot. At the apex
of the jump and before the ball is released, B2 comes from the
side and swats the ball out of A1’s hands. The ball goes
behind A1, deflects off A2 and into the backcourt, where A3 is
the first to touch it. RULING: A backcourt violation shall be
called. Team control had continued for Team A because the try
ended before the ball was in flight. (4-12-3a; 4-40-3,4;
9-9-1)


Now go think about your "philosophy" on officiating for a while and post again when you are man enough to get plays right.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

In a REAL basketball game officials apply the rules, are willing to make the tough calls, and don't give a d@mn what the coach thinks about their decisions. Here is an interp issued by the NFHS a couple of seasons ago on just such a play:2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS

Nevadaref; Great job. Scrapper1 bailed out and left us with a mess (probably watching a baseball game on television) and you came along and saved the day, with a five year old interpretation . I hope that you didn't have to go way up into the attic like Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. often has to do. Why doesn't he just leave his old papyrus rule scrolls in a more convenient location?

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

And this is why I asked you about your "pro philosophy." You just don't understand what it is to be an official at a non-entertainment level.

In a REAL basketball game officials apply the rules, are willing to make the tough calls, and don't give a d@mn what the coach thinks about their decisions.

Here is an interp issued by the NFHS a couple of seasons ago on just such a play:

2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS

SITUATION 5:
At the top of the key, A1 beats B1 off the dribble, reaches
the free-throw line, and pulls up for a jump shot. At the apex
of the jump and before the ball is released, B2 comes from the
side and swats the ball out of A1’s hands. The ball goes
behind A1, deflects off A2 and into the backcourt, where A3 is
the first to touch it. RULING: A backcourt violation shall be
called. Team control had continued for Team A because the try
ended before the ball was in flight. (4-12-3a; 4-40-3,4;
9-9-1)


Now go think about your "philosophy" on officiating for a while and post again when you are man enough to get plays right.

All I can say is hahahahahahahaha. I hope and pray you are a damn good official, cause you would need to be in order to have the right to say that BS.


I say fine to that ruling if that's what it is. That just seems horrible for the game and I would never, in a million years interpreted that play as the one mentioned as not being a field goal attempt. but i guess the NFHS has me stand corrected. too bad i couldn't go to the replay like they do EVERY PLAY in football??????

So now answer me this? the offensive player is not awarded a field goal attempt in the stat box? and the defender is not awarded a blocked shot, but instead what? A steal i guess...... I would love to see what the running score at the end of a college game would say? I would guarantee you that it would be counted as a FG attempted and a blocked shot. You guys need to send out a memo nationwide to all statisticians acknowledging that it is a travesty that they keep getting the stats incorrect. Heck, they are going to have to go back and re-tabulate all blocked shots!!! The real all-time shot blocker in college basketball might not actually be Wojciech Mydra!! It could possibly be George Mikan!! i heard he always tried to smack the ball right at the moment the offensive player released the ball!!!


AAAAHHHHHHHH MEEEE!