inadvertent whistle? pt. 2

[Adam]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

ok I would not call this a continuation of team control, ever. This is known as microdoting which can just get you in trouble. If a player is going up for a shot and has it in one hand above his/her head in a "attempt" to release the ball on a shot and a defender knocks it away I am not going to microdot this play. it is blatantly obvious to everyone that the defender is getting his or her "shot" blocked. Save yourself the hassle and dont continue and deem this team control. IMO that is foolish and not common sense refereeing.

P.S. I have always been of the mindset that officiating is not a science, but instead an art. You can't make officiating scientific because it is impossible, due to the fact of human error and you can never take the human out of the equation. So in that regard don't make officiating a science but instead keep it an art by not trying to be sooooooooo exact that it gets you in trouble.

You're just wrong here. If the shot never gets released, team control never ends (4-12-3a); regardless of the common coach/fan speak. Getting a shot blocked can easily happen before the release; happens all the time. Team control is never lost. Save yourself the heartache of having to explain why you went with AP instead of giving it to the team that clearly still had control.

Parts of officiating are definitely an "art," but that doesn't give you an excuse to ignore plain and simple rules.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If the shot never gets released, it's never a shot.

Snaqwells: Be careful here. We don't want to confuse any rookies out there. If by shot, you mean, try for goal, then there is one exception to your statement, continous motion:

4-41-1: The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne shooter.
4-41-2: A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand as a foul could prevent release of the ball.
4-41-3: The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

I do agree with you about team control. If the ball is never released, then team control is not lost, as Scrapper1 implied a few post ago.

[Adam]

Good point, Billy. I've corrected the original.
I'll add that while the try may begin and end, if the ball is never in flight "during" the try, team control continues. A blocked shot is the perfect example of when a try may "end" even thought team control continues.

Rule 4-41-4: The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the try is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You're just wrong here. If the shot never gets released, team control never ends (4-12-3a); regardless of the common coach/fan speak. Getting a shot blocked can easily happen before the release; happens all the time. Team control is never lost. Save yourself the heartache of having to explain why you went with AP instead of giving it to the team that clearly still had control.
Parts of officiating are definitely an "art," but that doesn't give you an excuse to ignore plain and simple rules.

The heartache comes when you tell that coach that the team was still in team control even after she was taking the shot. Once again, this is mircrodoting and not a misapplication of the rules imo. if it is so close to leaving the players hand, as my sitch was, although i still believe it was in her hand, I'm not going to say there is still team control.

You guys have all provided me with rule book citations and after reading them and seeing how it could confuse people, coaches, and fans this needs to be changed. They need to separate team control into 2 categories:

-Team control which would be defined as a team being in control when a player is holding, dribbling, or passing the ball, but ends when the defensive team deflects the ball or a shot is attempted.

-Team Possession which would be defined as a team being in possession of the ball when they are holding, dribbling or passing the ball, but it ends when the defensive team gains possession or their is a field goal attempted.

So in other words you just revamp what team control is and add the term team possession. This would cause all deflected balls to have no team control and would keep teams from getting royally screwed on more than just inadvertent whistles, but for the sake of the thread, inadvertent whistles...

[BillyMac]

1) We told you who gets the ball in high school, as you asked. If the shooter released the ball, you go with the arrow, if she didn't release the ball, which is highly unlikely, but certainly possible, as Scrapper1 pointed out, the shooter's team gets the ball for a throwin at the closest spot.

2) If, as you state, "I still believe it was in her hand", the rule is quite clear; the shooter's team maintains team possession until an opponent secures control, or the ball becomes dead.

3) Your suggested rule changes certainly seem to be based on common sense, and they may someday be incorporated in the rule book, but as of 2008-09, they are not, and you can't go around making up your own interpretation when you disagree with a rule. This "not making it up as you go along philosophy" was a NFHS Point of Emphasis a few years ago.

4) Scrapper1: You've got a lot of nerve bringing up this highly unlikely scenario, and high tailing it, leaving it up to Snaqwells and me to pick up the pieces.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

The heartache comes when you tell that coach that the team was still in team control even after she was taking the shot. Once again, this is mircrodoting and not a misapplication of the rules imo. if it is so close to leaving the players hand, as my sitch was, although i still believe it was in her hand, I'm not going to say there is still team control.

And this is why I asked you about your "pro philosophy." You just don't understand what it is to be an official at a non-entertainment level.

In a REAL basketball game officials apply the rules, are willing to make the tough calls, and don't give a d@mn what the coach thinks about their decisions.

Here is an interp issued by the NFHS a couple of seasons ago on just such a play:

2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS

SITUATION 5:
At the top of the key, A1 beats B1 off the dribble, reaches
the free-throw line, and pulls up for a jump shot. At the apex
of the jump and before the ball is released, B2 comes from the
side and swats the ball out of A1’s hands. The ball goes
behind A1, deflects off A2 and into the backcourt, where A3 is
the first to touch it. RULING: A backcourt violation shall be
called. Team control had continued for Team A because the try
ended before the ball was in flight. (4-12-3a; 4-40-3,4;
9-9-1)


Now go think about your "philosophy" on officiating for a while and post again when you are man enough to get plays right.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

In a REAL basketball game officials apply the rules, are willing to make the tough calls, and don't give a d@mn what the coach thinks about their decisions. Here is an interp issued by the NFHS a couple of seasons ago on just such a play:2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS

Nevadaref; Great job. Scrapper1 bailed out and left us with a mess (probably watching a baseball game on television) and you came along and saved the day, with a five year old interpretation . I hope that you didn't have to go way up into the attic like Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. often has to do. Why doesn't he just leave his old papyrus rule scrolls in a more convenient location?

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Nevadaref; Great job. Scrapper1 bailed out and left us with a mess (probably watching a baseball game on television) and you came along and saved the day, with a five year old interpretation . I hope that you didn't have to go way up into the attic like Mark T. DeNucci, Sr. often has to do. Why doesn't he just leave his old papyrus rule scrolls in a more convenient location?

Nah, very little research was required. That's my play. Seriously, I wrote it.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

And this is why I asked you about your "pro philosophy." You just don't understand what it is to be an official at a non-entertainment level.

In a REAL basketball game officials apply the rules, are willing to make the tough calls, and don't give a d@mn what the coach thinks about their decisions.

Here is an interp issued by the NFHS a couple of seasons ago on just such a play:

2003-04 NFHS BASKETBALL RULES INTERPRETATIONS

SITUATION 5:
At the top of the key, A1 beats B1 off the dribble, reaches
the free-throw line, and pulls up for a jump shot. At the apex
of the jump and before the ball is released, B2 comes from the
side and swats the ball out of A1’s hands. The ball goes
behind A1, deflects off A2 and into the backcourt, where A3 is
the first to touch it. RULING: A backcourt violation shall be
called. Team control had continued for Team A because the try
ended before the ball was in flight. (4-12-3a; 4-40-3,4;
9-9-1)


Now go think about your "philosophy" on officiating for a while and post again when you are man enough to get plays right.

All I can say is hahahahahahahaha. I hope and pray you are a damn good official, cause you would need to be in order to have the right to say that BS.


I say fine to that ruling if that's what it is. That just seems horrible for the game and I would never, in a million years interpreted that play as the one mentioned as not being a field goal attempt. but i guess the NFHS has me stand corrected. too bad i couldn't go to the replay like they do EVERY PLAY in football??????

So now answer me this? the offensive player is not awarded a field goal attempt in the stat box? and the defender is not awarded a blocked shot, but instead what? A steal i guess...... I would love to see what the running score at the end of a college game would say? I would guarantee you that it would be counted as a FG attempted and a blocked shot. You guys need to send out a memo nationwide to all statisticians acknowledging that it is a travesty that they keep getting the stats incorrect. Heck, they are going to have to go back and re-tabulate all blocked shots!!! The real all-time shot blocker in college basketball might not actually be Wojciech Mydra!! It could possibly be George Mikan!! i heard he always tried to smack the ball right at the moment the offensive player released the ball!!!


AAAAHHHHHHHH MEEEE!

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

There is no philosophy here. The rule says we will jump the ball at the center circle b/w any two players in the game with the shot clock at 24.

Yep, it's pretty basic. Follow what the rule says. Why can't you do that with all plays?

Originally Posted by BillyMac

If the shot was never released, then it's just like a defender knocking away the ball from a dribbler.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

ok I would not call this a continuation of team control, ever.
...
If a player is going up for a shot and has it in one hand above his/her head in a "attempt" to release the ball on a shot and a defender knocks it away I am not going to microdot this play. it is blatantly obvious to everyone that the defender is getting his or her "shot" blocked.

Blatantly obvious to whom? The fanboys in the stands who have never even seen a rules book? You are no better than them. You just call whatever you feel like in any given situation.

You seem to have no problem enforcing rules with which you agree, but simply refuse to correctly administer the ones that you don't like. Best wishes with that philosophy helping you advance.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

All I can say is hahahahahahahaha.
...
AAAAHHHHHHHH MEEEE!

Young, dumb, and full of ...
Do this forum a favor and don't post again until you are old enough to rent a car.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Yep, it's pretty basic. Follow what the rule says. Why can't you do that with all plays?





Blatantly obvious to whom? The fanboys in the stands who have never even seen a rules book? You are no better than them. You just call whatever you feel like in any given situation.

You seem to have no problem enforcing rules with which you agree, but simply refuse to correctly administer the ones that you don't like. Best wishes with that philosophy helping you advance.


Young, dumb, and full of ...
Do this forum a favor and don't post again until you are old enough to rent a car.

so i guess it is true. Girls can't block shots. They strip the ball at the top of their shot attempt!

You're right, it is hard for me to enforce rules that are completely stupid and make no common sense, but as i stated before if this is how they want it called than by all means have a field day with it. I've had no problem trying to advance with the philosophies i have. Thanks though.

Young, dumb and full of it huh? I'm not the one who made the comment about trying to get plays right. I get more than my fair share plays right, in fact mine are documented all the time.

[Scrapper1]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

So now answer me this? the offensive player is not awarded a field goal attempt in the stat box? and the defender is not awarded a blocked shot, but instead what?

I'll answer. Who cares? I don't mean to be mean-spirited, but honestly, what do those questions have to do with the rule in question? Are we going to rule incorrectly on certain plays so that the stat lines make the players happy? Really?

It seems fairly clear that you are more familiar with the NBA ruleset than with the NFHS/NCAA rules. (And there's nothing wrong with that!! I'm not trying to put you down. I think I read that you work some of the minor leagues in pro ball, and maybe D-League?) In the NBA ruleset, I believe that team control would end in the initial scenario, regardless of whether the try was released or not. Am I correct about that? Any time the defender deflects the ball, it becomes a "loose ball" situation with no team control, right?

The point is, you can't allow yourself to use the pro rules in an NCAA game. Just like I can't allow myself to use the NCAA rules when working a high school game. What if I granted an extra full time-out to a team (without the technical foul) in the closing seconds of a high school game and said that it's better for the game to have 4 full time-outs? I'd get ripped to shreds, and rightly so. And while I think that Nevadaref's comments about being "dumb and full of . . ." are probably out of line, he made them because, in this particular case, either you don't know the rule or you seem inclined to simply ignore the proper rule.

If you're going to work NCAA or NFHS games, you owe it to the participants to know those rulesets and apply them correctly. On the plus side, you're here on this forum, hopefully to learn them better.

[Scrapper1]

P.S. -- I agree that there are times when "microdotting" a play is not good for the game. (For example, borderline violations like 3-seconds and palming in the backcourt.) I disagree, however, that this is a case of microdotting. This is a case of applying a clear rule to an obvious situation. JMHO.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Scrapper1

I'll answer. Who cares? I don't mean to be mean-spirited, but honestly, what do those questions have to do with the rule in question? Are we going to rule incorrectly on certain plays so that the stat lines make the players happy? Really?

It seems fairly clear that you are more familiar with the NBA ruleset than with the NFHS/NCAA rules. (And there's nothing wrong with that!! I'm not trying to put you down. I think I read that you work some of the minor leagues in pro ball, and maybe D-League?) In the NBA ruleset, I believe that team control would end in the initial scenario, regardless of whether the try was released or not. Am I correct about that? Any time the defender deflects the ball, it becomes a "loose ball" situation with no team control, right?

The point is, you can't allow yourself to use the pro rules in an NCAA game. Just like I can't allow myself to use the NCAA rules when working a high school game. What if I granted an extra full time-out to a team (without the technical foul) in the closing seconds of a high school game and said that it's better for the game to have 4 full time-outs? I'd get ripped to shreds, and rightly so. And while I think that Nevadaref's comments about being "dumb and full of . . ." are probably out of line, he made them because, in this particular case, either you don't know the rule or you seem inclined to simply ignore the proper rule.

If you're going to work NCAA or NFHS games, you owe it to the participants to know those rulesets and apply them correctly. On the plus side, you're here on this forum, hopefully to learn them better.

You're right about the pro rule, the ball does become a "loose" ball, which makes 10 times more sense to me, cause if we then have an inadvertent whistle then we can have a jump ball and everbody gets a fair shake at getting to have possession but in HS and college, you are screwing the other team over by saying the team who just "shot" it gets to retain possession.

I attempt not to use pro rules in my games, but it is what i know best so when I'm crew chief in my college games I ask for help from my crew and when i'm not CC I keep my mouth shut.

I will admit on this play that i brought up i was totally ignorant to the fact that the ball had to leave the player's hand. That seems ridiculous but it is what it is. I asked the question for a reason and received my answer. I'm not trying to argue it at all, it just irritates me that there are some insanely ridiculous non common sense rules out there. Thanks for the help. Maybe i won't screw it up next time.

I probably shouldn't be posting on here yet.... my birthday is tmrw and I still won't be able to rent a car!!

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I probably shouldn't be posting on here yet.... my birthday is tmrw and I still won't be able to rent a car!!

Matt's is today and now he can...remember that the next time you travel with him.


BTW, there are supervisors out there who call this "micro-dotting" the rule. There are others who expect the rule to be enforced to letter. Gotta know for whom you work every night you step on the court.