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Old Sun Oct 05, 2008, 01:09pm
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inadvertent whistle? pt. 2

A1 is on a fast break with B1 trying to catch from behind. B1 does get to the player in time and blocks the shot (girl got killed from my halfcourt angle, but that's beside the point) and the ball hits the rubber of the bottom of the backboard and jumps back in play. At this time my partner calls OOB just as the opposing team gains possession. What is the rule on inadvertent whistles like this? In college and HS? Who gets the ball? Thanks
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Old Sun Oct 05, 2008, 01:20pm
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Seems like the timing is pretty close. I'd probably give it to the team who gained possession as the whistle was sounding. If the whistle is clearly before possession was gained, your POI becomes the AP.
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Old Sun Oct 05, 2008, 02:06pm
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How does your "pro philosophy" tell you handle such a situation?
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Old Sun Oct 05, 2008, 02:08pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
Seems like the timing is pretty close. I'd probably give it to the team who gained possession as the whistle was sounding. If the whistle is clearly before possession was gained, your POI becomes the AP.
Agree. Before possession, there's no team control because of the loss of team control on the try.
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Old Sun Oct 05, 2008, 02:14pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btaylor64 View Post
B1 does get to the player in time and blocks the shot
Was the try released? Or was the shot blocked out of the shooter's hand?

Makes a big difference in this play.
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Old Sun Oct 05, 2008, 02:26pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevadaref View Post
How does your "pro philosophy" tell you handle such a situation?
There is no philosophy here. The rule says we will jump the ball at the center circle b/w any two players in the game with the shot clock at 24.
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Old Sun Oct 05, 2008, 02:29pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
Was the try released? Or was the shot blocked out of the shooter's hand?

Makes a big difference in this play.
Why does it make a difference?

The shot was blocked regardless and it was loose when the whistle is blown?
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Old Sun Oct 05, 2008, 02:33pm
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Blocked Before Release, Maintains Team Control ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrapper1 View Post
Was the try released? Or was the shot blocked out of the shooter's hand? Makes a big difference in this play.
Wow. Nice catch.
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Old Sun Oct 05, 2008, 02:36pm
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Thanks Scrapper1 ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by btaylor64 View Post
Why does it make a difference? The shot was blocked regardless and it was loose when the whistle is blown?
If the shot was never released, then it's just like a defender knocking away the ball from a dribbler. The ball remains in team control until an opponent secures control, or the ball becomes dead. Most of us would assume, and usually be correct, that a shot was blocked after the release, but this may not necessarily always be true. The original post simply says "blocks the shot", not "blocks the shot after it's been released on a try". Picky? Yes. Relevant? In theory, I believe, yes.
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Last edited by BillyMac; Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 02:41pm.
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Old Sun Oct 05, 2008, 05:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac View Post
If the shot was never released, then it's just like a defender knocking away the ball from a dribbler. The ball remains in team control until an opponent secures control, or the ball becomes dead. Most of us would assume, and usually be correct, that a shot was blocked after the release, but this may not necessarily always be true. The original post simply says "blocks the shot", not "blocks the shot after it's been released on a try". Picky? Yes. Relevant? In theory, I believe, yes.
ok I would not call this a continuation of team control, ever. This is known as microdoting which can just get you in trouble. If a player is going up for a shot and has it in one hand above his/her head in a "attempt" to release the ball on a shot and a defender knocks it away I am not going to microdot this play. it is blatantly obvious to everyone that the defender is getting his or her "shot" blocked. Save yourself the hassle and dont continue and deem this team control. IMO that is foolish and not common sense refereeing.

P.S. I have always been of the mindset that officiating is not a science, but instead an art. You can't make officiating scientific because it is impossible, due to the fact of human error and you can never take the human out of the equation. So in that regard don't make officiating a science but instead keep it an art by not trying to be sooooooooo exact that it gets you in trouble.
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Last edited by btaylor64; Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 05:15pm.
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Old Sun Oct 05, 2008, 06:26pm
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Overly Officious Officiating ??? Maybe ???

My recent post: "Most of us would assume, and usually be correct, that a shot was blocked after the release, but this may not necessarily always be true. The original post simply says "blocks the shot", not "blocks the shot after it's been released on a try". Picky? Yes. Relevant? In theory, I believe, yes."

Quote:
Originally Posted by btaylor64 View Post
I would not call this a continuation of team control, ever. If a player is going up for a shot and has it in one hand above his/her head in an "attempt" to release the ball on a shot and a defender knocks it away I am not going to microdot this play. It is blatantly obvious to everyone that the defender is getting his or her "shot" blocked. Save yourself the hassle and don't continue and deem this team control. That is foolish and not common sense refereeing.
I agree with you that, what you call, "microdoting", and what many Forum members often refer to as, overly officious officiating, is not the way to realistically approach a live game. But in the context of a preseason rules interpretation question, definitions are very important, and should not be ignored, if only to emphasis how difficult it is to officiate a basketball game.

4-12- 3: Team control continues until: a. The ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal. b. An opponent secures control. c. The ball becomes dead.

4-12-4: While the ball remains live a loose ball always remains in control of the team whose player last had control, unless it is a try or tap for goal.

4-12-6: Neither team control nor player control exists during a dead ball, throw-in, a jump ball or when the ball is in flight during a try or tap for goal.

4-41-1: The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne shooter.

4-41-2: A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand as a foul could prevent release of the ball.

4-41-3: The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

The highlighted parts of the above quoted rules deal with the difference between a try for goal, and the release of that try for goal. In a real game situation, I will concede to you that you can probably get away with calling a try for goal a loss of team control, however, in the context of an exam question, or when confronted with a situation where going to the arrow, as in the original post, occurs when there are only a few seconds left in the game, and the misapplication, in theory, of the rule causes a team to, by definition, incorrectly gain control of the ball, and score the winning basket, then an intelligent coach, athletic director, local cable television announcer, or local newspaper sports reporter, may put you in a situation where you have, as Ricky used to say to Lucy, "A lot of 'splaining to do" to your partner, evaluator, or assigner.
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Old Sun Oct 05, 2008, 07:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by btaylor64 View Post
ok I would not call this a continuation of team control, ever. This is known as microdoting which can just get you in trouble. If a player is going up for a shot and has it in one hand above his/her head in a "attempt" to release the ball on a shot and a defender knocks it away I am not going to microdot this play. it is blatantly obvious to everyone that the defender is getting his or her "shot" blocked. Save yourself the hassle and dont continue and deem this team control. IMO that is foolish and not common sense refereeing.

P.S. I have always been of the mindset that officiating is not a science, but instead an art. You can't make officiating scientific because it is impossible, due to the fact of human error and you can never take the human out of the equation. So in that regard don't make officiating a science but instead keep it an art by not trying to be sooooooooo exact that it gets you in trouble.
You're just wrong here. If the shot never gets released, team control never ends (4-12-3a); regardless of the common coach/fan speak. Getting a shot blocked can easily happen before the release; happens all the time. Team control is never lost. Save yourself the heartache of having to explain why you went with AP instead of giving it to the team that clearly still had control.

Parts of officiating are definitely an "art," but that doesn't give you an excuse to ignore plain and simple rules.
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Last edited by Adam; Sun Oct 05, 2008 at 08:17pm.
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Old Sun Oct 05, 2008, 08:05pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
If the shot never gets released, it's never a shot.
Snaqwells: Be careful here. We don't want to confuse any rookies out there. If by shot, you mean, try for goal, then there is one exception to your statement, continous motion:

4-41-1: The act of shooting begins simultaneously with the start of the try or tap and ends when the ball is clearly in flight, and includes the airborne shooter.
4-41-2: A try for field goal is an attempt by a player to score two or three points by throwing the ball into a team’s own basket. A player is trying for goal when the player has the ball and in the official’s judgment is throwing or attempting to throw for goal. It is not essential that the ball leave the player’s hand as a foul could prevent release of the ball.
4-41-3: The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

I do agree with you about team control. If the ball is never released, then team control is not lost, as Scrapper1 implied a few post ago.
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Old Sun Oct 05, 2008, 08:22pm
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Good point, Billy. I've corrected the original.
I'll add that while the try may begin and end, if the ball is never in flight "during" the try, team control continues. A blocked shot is the perfect example of when a try may "end" even thought team control continues.
Quote:
Rule 4-41-4: The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the try is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.
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Old Sun Oct 05, 2008, 08:41pm
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Originally Posted by Snaqwells View Post
You're just wrong here. If the shot never gets released, team control never ends (4-12-3a); regardless of the common coach/fan speak. Getting a shot blocked can easily happen before the release; happens all the time. Team control is never lost. Save yourself the heartache of having to explain why you went with AP instead of giving it to the team that clearly still had control.
Parts of officiating are definitely an "art," but that doesn't give you an excuse to ignore plain and simple rules.
The heartache comes when you tell that coach that the team was still in team control even after she was taking the shot. Once again, this is mircrodoting and not a misapplication of the rules imo. if it is so close to leaving the players hand, as my sitch was, although i still believe it was in her hand, I'm not going to say there is still team control.

You guys have all provided me with rule book citations and after reading them and seeing how it could confuse people, coaches, and fans this needs to be changed. They need to separate team control into 2 categories:

-Team control which would be defined as a team being in control when a player is holding, dribbling, or passing the ball, but ends when the defensive team deflects the ball or a shot is attempted.

-Team Possession which would be defined as a team being in possession of the ball when they are holding, dribbling or passing the ball, but it ends when the defensive team gains possession or their is a field goal attempted.

So in other words you just revamp what team control is and add the term team possession. This would cause all deflected balls to have no team control and would keep teams from getting royally screwed on more than just inadvertent whistles, but for the sake of the thread, inadvertent whistles...
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