Clock Situation?????

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

The rules only allow you to take time off that you "know" should have elapsed. Any and all counts are "known" elements and can be used to determine the time to be removed. There is nothing that says the counts must be continuous nor that they account for all of the missing time but you can't remove the time that was not under a count.

I agree with you, but not all do.
Since definite knowledge isn't defined, it's frankly up to a bit of interpretation.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I agree with you, but not all do.
Since definite knowledge isn't defined, it's frankly up to a bit of interpretation.

I think we all agree (and so does the NFHS according to previous statements) that timing accuracy is only relevant in the closing moments of a period/game....no one cares about 2-3 seconds with 6:15 left in the 2nd quarter. Furthermore, no one cares about 3-4 seconds in the closing minute of a 30 point blowout. So, all relevant situatoins are end-of-quarter or end-of-game when the score is "close".

Let's pose a play:

11 seconds to go in a tie game. Throwin for A goes to A1 in the backcourt but the clock doesn't start. A1, under pressure, has the ball in the BC for 8 seconds when A1 completes a pass to an open/unguarded A2 just across the division line. After a moment, B2 obtains a guarding position within 6' and agressively and successfully contains B2...the count gets to 4 when A2 passes to a cutting A4 who dribbles twice and lays the ball in.

What's the call?

1. Count the bucket....if so, what next?
2. Go to OT.

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

What's the call?

1. Count the bucket....if so, what next?
2. Go to OT.

None of the above.

The official who administered the throw-in gets their a$$ kicked &/or cussed out for not glancing at the clock after chopping time in.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

None of the above.

The official who administered the throw-in gets their a$$ kicked &/or cussed out for not glancing at the clock after chopping time in.

and/or wet towel whipped for 10 minutes after the game....

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

None of the above.

The official who administered the throw-in gets their a$$ kicked &/or cussed out for not glancing at the clock after chopping time in.

Fair enough, but now that we're in the mess, what is done to resolve it?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

Fair enough, but now that we're in the mess, what is done to resolve it?

Seems pretty straight-forward to me. We get together as crew to exchange information while the crowd is yelling so loud it's hard to hear each other. We determine we know that there were 11 seconds on the clock, and that we have definite knowledge that 12 seconds elapsed before the shot was released (8 second backcourt count and 4 second closely-guarded count). Therefore we get both coaches together in front of the table, wave off the layup, explain we're going to OT and why, tell the table to put the required amount of time up, then send both teams back to their benches to prepare for the OT.

We then get together as a crew to determine where the R is buying the after-game libations, since it's their fault we went to OT.

Is that how you would handle it?

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Seems pretty straight-forward to me. We get together as crew to exchange information while the crowd is yelling so loud it's hard to hear each other. We determine we know that there were 11 seconds on the clock, and that we have definite knowledge that 12 seconds elapsed before the shot was released (8 second backcourt count and 4 second closely-guarded count). Therefore we get both coaches together in front of the table, wave off the layup, explain we're going to OT and why, tell the table to put the required amount of time up, then send both teams back to their benches to prepare for the OT.

We then get together as a crew to determine where the R is buying the after-game libations, since it's their fault we went to OT.

Is that how you would handle it?

Can't argue with that. It's exactly how it should be handled.

-Josh

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by jdmara

Can't argue with that. It's exactly how it should be handled.

-Josh

Ok, now how would you handle the exact same situation, except the clock had 13 seconds on it at the time of the throw-in?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Seems pretty straight-forward to me. We get together as crew to exchange information while the crowd is yelling so loud it's hard to hear each other. We determine we know that there were 11 seconds on the clock, and that we have definite knowledge that 12 seconds elapsed before the shot was released (8 second backcourt count and 4 second closely-guarded count). Therefore we get both coaches together in front of the table, wave off the layup, explain we're going to OT and why, tell the table to put the required amount of time up, then send both teams back to their benches to prepare for the OT.

We then get together as a crew to determine where the R is buying the after-game libations, since it's their fault we went to OT.

Is that how you would handle it?

I would handle it the way you proposed, but there are those that argue you can't touch the clock in any way if you have any gaps in your counts and would continue with 11 seconds on the clock after counting the basket and giving B the ball for a throwin as after any goal.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I would handle it the way you proposed, but there are those that argue you can't touch the clock in any way if you have any gaps in your counts and would continue with 11 seconds on the clock after counting the basket and giving B the ball for a throwin as after any goal.

I can see the rationale for that side, but it just doesn't make any sense to me to not take off any time at all. Besides, 5-10-2 says, "If the referee determines that the clock was not started or stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official's count or other official information can be used to make a correction." That's exactly what I did - I made a correction based on the count(s). I can't make a correction on the rest of the time because I don't have any count or official information. That rule doesn't say, "...relative to all of the time in question..." or something similar.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Ok, now how would you handle the exact same situation, except the clock had 13 seconds on it at the time of the throw-in?

I believe you have to account for the time you have definite knowledge was used during the play. If you have twelve seconds of visual counts, IMO you have to reduce the time on the clock by that much.

-Josh

[Adam]

Originally Posted by jdmara

I believe you have to account for the time you have definite knowledge was used during the play. If you have twelve seconds of visual counts, IMO you have to reduce the time on the clock by that much.

-Josh

So B gets the ball after the made basket with 1 second left.

The real problem is if A was down by 1 with 11 seconds left when the cluster ffff started.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

We then get together as a crew to determine where the R is buying the after-game libations, since it's their fault we went to OT.

You may also go ahead and request your police escort now.

[jdmara]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So B gets the ball after the made basket with 1 second left.

The real problem is if A was down by 1 with 11 seconds left when the cluster ffff started.

I'm not saying it's an easy call to make but it's the right call IMO. One team is always going to be upset after a close game and, unfortunately, this puts the officiating crew right in the center of the fire. Admit that their was a timing error and this is the corrective action. Owning up to the error is the only way to deal with this situation IMO. Unless there is a rule I am unaware of, this is the solution that the rules support for FED.

-Josh

[JugglingReferee]

Sometimes we have to earn our pay. Step up, use your b_lls and make the call.