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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Mar 19, 2001, 09:38pm
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I had a situation occur in an AAU game this Sunday and would like to get some other opinions.

Team B scored a basket to cut the lead to 63-62 and called a timeout with 18.9 seconds showing on the clock. They (obviously) set up a press coming out of the t.o. Player B1 - who was pressuring the thrower - tipped the inbounds pass and an instant later player A1 caught the ball and started dribbling. I was the new lead and when my count reached 10, the player from team A had the ball between the top of the key and half court. I blew my whistle and reported a 10-second violation on Team A.

Here's where the question comes: The clock showed 9.2 seconds remaining. Meaning from the moment the timer started the clock, only 9.7 seconds had actually run off the clock. Of course the fans were going nuts because they saw 18 and 9 (they didn't bother to look at the tenths). The coach of Team A called a time-out to discuss the situation with me and my partner.

I explained (with both coaches present) that the timer must have not started the clock EXACTLY when I chopped the clock. Meaning the timer didn't see me chop the clock when B1 tipped the ball, rather started the clock when A1 touched the ball. I explained to the coach that the failure to start the clock at the right time taken in conjunction with "reaction" time and the fact that the clock showed 9.7 seconds had expired, that the correct call was made. He still wasn't happy, but he understood.

If I had it to do over again, I would have glanced at the clock to make sure -- but given that is not always an option (clock location, etc), I was wondering what others thought.

Any thoughts? Feedback?

Thanks,
Jake

By the way, Team B scored on the possession and won the game 64-63.
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Old Mon Mar 19, 2001, 10:12pm
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A few thoughts from the table

(1) Starting the clock and starting the 10-second count are not concurrent in this case.

(2) Assuming even a full second lag time, your count was 8.7 seconds. No offense, but a clock does a better job counting here than your arm.

(3) If you are sure that your 10 second count was accurate, then the fans are actually "right" (did I just say that?!!?!?). You had specific knowledge of the time involved (ten seconds - actually a few tenths more, but you can only go with what you know - no guessing until NBA) and should have set the clock to 8.9. (NF Rule 5-10)

These are not fun situations to be in, but I don't think anyone did anything "wrong." You had a ten second count, and the timer started and stopped the clock within reason. Just hope that the last 9.2 seconds will run FAST!
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Old Mon Mar 19, 2001, 10:13pm
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forgot one

(4) counts are not based on the clock, unless you're doing NCAA ball, and the supervisor says "I don't care about your arms - just make sure you call the 10 sec when the shot clock reaches 25." See (1) for the problem with this.
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Old Mon Mar 19, 2001, 10:44pm
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Mark

thanks for the feedback.

in response to number 2...assuming that the timer DID NOT start the clock accurately -- because of the tip by Player B1 -- my count could have actually been at MORE than 10 (10.7 in response to your example of my arm being at 8.7), but your point is well taken.

you wrote:
"If you are sure that your 10 second count was accurate, then the fans are actually "right" (did I just say that?!!?!?). You had specific knowledge of the time involved (ten seconds - actually a few tenths more, but you can only go with what you know - no guessing until NBA) and should have set the clock to 8.9. (NF Rule 5-10)"

At the time this is actually an option I considered, again, because I felt very comfortable with the accuracy of my count (which is historically slow). I, however, did not choose that option because in an effort to be a good game manager, I did not think the coach would react well if I were to take time OFF THE CLOCK...meaning that if the other team scored his team would have LESS TIME in which to score.

But I'm glad you brought up that point, because it raises another great question for thought. Especially in light of the fact that the option actually crossed my mind at the time.

Thanks in advance,
Jake
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  #5 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 20, 2001, 09:26am
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Quote:
Originally posted by 112448
I had a situation occur in an AAU game this Sunday and would like to get some other opinions.

Team B scored a basket to cut the lead to 63-62 and called a timeout with 18.9 seconds showing on the clock. They (obviously) set up a press coming out of the t.o. Player B1 - who was pressuring the thrower - tipped the inbounds pass and an instant later player A1 caught the ball and started dribbling. I was the new lead and when my count reached 10, the player from team A had the ball between the top of the key and half court. I blew my whistle and reported a 10-second violation on Team A.

Here's where the question comes: The clock showed 9.2 seconds remaining. Meaning from the moment the timer started the clock, only 9.7 seconds had actually run off the clock. Of course the fans were going nuts because they saw 18 and 9 (they didn't bother to look at the tenths). The coach of Team A called a time-out to discuss the situation with me and my partner.

I explained (with both coaches present) that the timer must have not started the clock EXACTLY when I chopped the clock. Meaning the timer didn't see me chop the clock when B1 tipped the ball, rather started the clock when A1 touched the ball. I explained to the coach that the failure to start the clock at the right time taken in conjunction with "reaction" time and the fact that the clock showed 9.7 seconds had expired, that the correct call was made. He still wasn't happy, but he understood.

If I had it to do over again, I would have glanced at the clock to make sure -- but given that is not always an option (clock location, etc), I was wondering what others thought.
First, why are you calling a 10 second violation form the "new lead" position? Did you mean trail?

Second, the 10 second count does not start when the ball is tipped by B1. It doesn't start until A1 has possession. So something is amiss here. Either your count is way too fast or the timer didn't start the clock until much later than he/she should have.

I'd say you made a mistake. Learn from it and move on.
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Old Tue Mar 20, 2001, 10:15am
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If the shot clock or game clock doesn't clearly show that
10 seconds have elapsed then wait. If it does show 10
seconds have elapsed then blow the whistle, no matter what
your own count is. It's sad but true that absolutely no
one will question your call if you do this.
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 20, 2001, 10:35am
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BktBallRef

my mistake, i did mean new trail and thanks for the response.

you wrote:
"Second, the 10 second count does not start when the ball is tipped by B1. It doesn't start until A1 has possession. So something is amiss here. Either your count is way too fast or the timer didn't start the clock until much later than he/she should have."

I realize my count doesn't start until Team A secures possession and that gets to the larger issue...since 9.7 seconds actually did run off the clock (let's say the timer started the clock on possession instead of first touch) and i reached a 10 count (meaning, at most, my 10 count was 0.3 of a second too fast)...had the timer started the clock at the proper time, then more than 10 seconds would have elapsed, thus "covering up" my count that was too fast by 0.3 seconds. so your point about my count is well-taken and appreciated.

But for my edification let's say (as you've stated in your last sentence), the timer started the clock a full second later, maybe i was at 1 on my count by now, -- not sure b/c of clock location i was not in position to see it -- and you KNOW you've reached a count of 10...how do you handle that situation?


Dan_ref...that is certainly good advice.

thanks again, this message board is great.

Jake
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 20, 2001, 11:05am
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Quote:
Originally posted by 112448

But for my edification let's say (as you've stated in your last sentence), the timer started the clock a full second later, maybe i was at 1 on my count by now, -- not sure b/c of clock location i was not in position to see it -- and you KNOW you've reached a count of 10...how do you handle that situation?
Then you should do exactly what Dan suggested. If the clock hasn't ticked off at least ten seconds, don't call the violation until it has, unless you're sure there has been a timing error.

Normally, it shouldn't take a timer a full second to start the clock. It could definitely take a full second to stop the clock. If 9.7 ticked off and you didn't start your count until A had possession, then it's likely the timer didn't start the clock for several seconds after he should have.

I think it's safe to say that your count probably isn't too fast. It's almost impossible to count too fast without dislocating an elbow or shoulder.
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Old Tue Mar 20, 2001, 11:10am
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Re: forgot one

Quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dexter
(4) counts are not based on the clock, unless you're doing NCAA ball, and the supervisor says "I don't care about your arms - just make sure you call the 10 sec when the shot clock reaches 25." See (1) for the problem with this.
How true, how true!!! This was one of the first things my supervisor and my partners told me when I started. If that shot clock hits 25 and the ball still has backcourt status without a change in team control you better be blowing the whistle. I've been in games where in pre-game the referee has actually said that for the 10 second count, the arm swing is just for show. I will say that after doing it for a while, you get a feel for when that clock is getting close to 25.
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Old Tue Mar 20, 2001, 10:14pm
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The casebook play that covers this situation for both NCAA and NFHS rules is found in the NFHS Casebook. See Play 5.10.1C.

In this play there are twelve seconds remaining in the fourth quarter when Team A inbounds the ball in their backcourt. A1's throw-in pass is to A2 in Team A's backcourt where A2 dribbles the ball until the horn sounds. The game is over. The clock may not be reset as there are no rule provisions to do this. If the count was not accurate or was not made, it cannot be corrected. There is no provision for the correction of an error makde in the official's accuracy in counting seconds.

One other play that can be looked at is NFHS Casebook Play 5.10.2.

In this play, there are five seconds on the clock as A1 is bounced the ball for a throw-in. The throw-in is completed to A2. The official properly signals the clock to start and immediately begins a closey-guarded count on A2. The official reaches a count of three seconds when B1 fouls A2. The official stops play properly and reports the foul at the table. The timer reports that he/she did not start the clock when the throw-in was touched by A2. The clock still shows five seconds. The referee will order the clock set at two seconds. The referee has definite knowledge of the amount of time involved in this situation by using the closely-guarded count.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old Tue Mar 20, 2001, 10:58pm
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Just a comment about the "shot clock hitting 25 and we had better have a wistle" idea that has been mentioned by a couple of people in this post. I have never reffed a game where the shot clock shows tenths of seconds (like most game clocks) so really a team should have until 24 seconds on the shot clock before you make a ten second call. Because in theory if as soon as the shot clock hit 25 and you call a violation there might actually be 25.7 seconds left. With no 10's being showen I think you could be robbing a team in some cases of almost a full second. Just a thought.
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Old Wed Mar 21, 2001, 12:20am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dewey1
Just a comment about the "shot clock hitting 25 and we had better have a wistle" idea that has been mentioned by a couple of people in this post. I have never reffed a game where the shot clock shows tenths of seconds (like most game clocks) so really a team should have until 24 seconds on the shot clock before you make a ten second call. Because in theory if as soon as the shot clock hit 25 and you call a violation there might actually be 25.7 seconds left. With no 10's being showen I think you could be robbing a team in some cases of almost a full second. Just a thought.
35, 34, 33, 32, 31, 30, 29, 28, 27, 26...that's ten! So to use your method is giving them more than 10 seconds. When the shot clock hits 25, ten seconds have expired.
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Old Wed Mar 21, 2001, 08:36am
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef

35, 34, 33, 32, 31, 30, 29, 28, 27, 26...that's ten! So to use your method is giving them more than 10 seconds. When the shot clock hits 25, ten seconds have expired.
Well, yes that's ten, but I'm not sure that's how the shot clock works. If the clock is reset, then turned on-off really quickly, does the clock show 35 or 34?

Most game clocks will "instantly" move to 34 (or 19:59 or 7:59) when they are turned on. The actual time remianing is the time shown plus up to .9 seconds.

I've been assuming that shot clocks are the same, but they might not be.

In any event, using the shot (or game) clock as a substitute for / supplement to the 10-second count only works if control and touching happen at the same time.
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Old Wed Mar 21, 2001, 09:12am
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Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins

Well, yes that's ten, but I'm not sure that's how the shot clock works. If the clock is reset, then turned on-off really quickly, does the clock show 35 or 34?
I've never seen one start at 34. They all show 35.

Quote:
Most game clocks will "instantly" move to 34 (or 19:59 or 7:59) when they are turned on. The actual time remianing is the time shown plus up to .9 seconds.
I'm not sure that I agree with that. How do you know unless you're the one starting the clock? I don't believe that's possible to determine from the court.

With every shot clock I've ever seen, the horn sounds when the clocks hits 0, not one second or .9 later. If what you're saying is true, then A is actiually only getting 34 seconds to shoot.

Quote:
In any event, using the shot (or game) clock as a substitute for / supplement to the 10-second count only works if control and touching happen at the same time.
Agreed.
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Old Wed Mar 21, 2001, 10:37am
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Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by bob jenkins

Most game clocks will "instantly" move to 34 (or 19:59 or 7:59) when they are turned on. The actual time remianing is the time shown plus up to .9 seconds.
I'm not sure that I agree with that. How do you know unless you're the one starting the clock? I don't believe that's possible to determine from the court.
Most game clocks do instantly move when started, such as from 8:00 to 7:59. In effect, they display a truncated time, that is, the actual time with the tenths of seconds removed. For example 7:59.9, 7:59.5, 7:59.3, and 7:59.0 are all displayed as 7:59. Now in the middle of a game, the clock may be stopped at, for example, 4:59.9 and when it is restarted, it will be a full second before the clock displays 4:58 (when it reaches 4:58.9). I guess this is a good reason for an accurate count, because 10 seconds running off the clock could actually be only 9.1 seconds ( 4:59.0 to 4:49.9 - which displays as 4:59 to 4:49).

Haven't you ever seen a game clock display zero, without the horn sounding (Assuming that the clock is functioning correctly)? That's because there is 0.1 to 0.9 seconds remaining.
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