Poll: What do you have?

[Adam]

Well, it jumped out at me, Rut; and I have yet to see someone state why it's not an obvious (rather than a technical) travel. Lead couldn't see it due to bodies, probably, but it's a perfect example of a call trail should have in the paint.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Well, it jumped out at me, Rut; and I have yet to see someone state why it's not an obvious (rather than a technical) travel. Lead couldn't see it due to bodies, probably, but it's a perfect example of a call trail should have in the paint.

I said it was technical at best. And if you have to run the tape over and over again to justify a call, then it is a good no call (like the officials on this game decided not to call anything) to me. And if I am the trail and I am not sure, I do not come in making a call in front of another official that saw the entire play.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I said it was technical at best. And if you have to run the tape over and over again to justify a call, then it is a good no call (like the officials on this game decided not to call anything) to me. And if I am the trail and I am not sure, I do not come in making a call in front of another official that saw the entire play.

Peace

As Snaq points out, the lead had reason not to see the entire play. But from the video, which is the perspective of the trail, the travel is certainly easy enough to see to make a call. I'm still a bit vague about the term "technical travel," but this play does not involve foot movement in inches, and there is no jump stop. Perhaps there are other examples.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

As Snaq points out, the lead had reason not to see the entire play. But from the video, which is the perspective of the trail, the travel is certainly easy enough to see to make a call. I'm still a bit vague about the term "technical travel," but this play does not involve foot movement in inches, and there is no jump stop. Perhaps there are other examples.

Considering that the video is from the stands on the other side of the court, I hardly look at that as from the Trail's point of view. And if people think the video is grainy on a closer angle, not sure how the video gets clearer further away from the camera. Oh well.

Peace

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Considering that the video is from the stands on the other side of the court, I hardly look at that as from the Trail's point of view.

The video is literally looking over the guy's shoulder. Is it possible you didn't notice him either?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by just another ref

The video is literally looking over the guy's shoulder. Is it possible you didn't notice him either?

The camera is on the other side of the court. The camera is not sitting right next to the Trail or within 20 feet even if you consider the zoom possibility. And if I called a travel from the Trail where he was standing, the coach is going to go ballistic when you are that far away and an official is standing right there. And I know I would be pissed with a partner that made a call I clearly was on top of. You cannot travel on a dribble or when you do not have control of the ball. Two very important things you cannot clearly see. So what his feet are doing is irrelevant to me.

I know this is going to be hard for you to understand. The officials passed on the play for a reason. I know you think you are the best official alive and you can see things that officials on the game cannot see, because you can slow down the tape and watch it over and over again. My first instinct it was suspect at best and with all my experience watching and breaking down tape I feel the same way now. I really think you are reaching when you claim this was right next to the trail's position. If I can see the official’s entire torso, the camera was not just over his shoulder. Give me a break.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Considering that the video is from the stands on the other side of the court, I hardly look at that as from the Trail's point of view. And if people think the video is grainy on a closer angle, not sure how the video gets clearer further away from the camera. Oh well.

Peace

I agree with you on the call itself....not sure I'd call it a travel...just can't see when the ball was caught. Certainly not obvious.

However, it was perfectly in line with the trail's point-of-view. Note that this was a 2-man game. Perhaps you were thinking it was the C in the foreground of the video?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I agree with you on the call itself....not sure I'd call it a travel...just can't see when the ball was caught. Certainly not obvious.

However, it was perfectly in line with the trail's point-of-view. Note that this was a 2-man game. Perhaps you were thinking it was the C in the foreground of the video?

It is obvious this is a 2 Person game, I never was thinking otherwise. And in a 2 Person game I am even more careful to make calls I "think" happen before I call something in my partner’s area. With the Lead standing right there and the play took place clearly in his area. The player barely spun into the lane. As a Trail I better be 1000% sure something happen in another official’s area. And without a clear look at the left foot and ball status, I really am not calling a travel based on this angle. There is a reason why we want officials closer to the lane than this official appeared to be standing and definitely closer than this camera angle. Just because we are looking from a fixed position far away (in the backcourt of this play I might add) from the Trail, does not mean that is a better angle or look than the Trail on this video had. I must make it very clear again, the officials on the game passed on this play for a reason. What that reason was we will just have to ask them.

Peace

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is obvious this is a 2 Person game, I never was thinking otherwise. And in a 2 Person game I am even more careful to make calls I "think" happen before I call something in my partner’s area. With the Lead standing right there and the play took place clearly in his area. The player barely spun into the lane. As a Trail I better be 1000% sure something happen in another official’s area. And without a clear look at the left foot and ball status, I really am not calling a travel based on this angle. There is a reason why we want officials closer to the lane than this official appeared to be standing and definitely closer than this camera angle. Just because we are looking from a fixed position far away (in the backcourt of this play I might add) from the Trail, does not mean that is a better angle or look than the Trail on this video had. I must make it very clear again, the officials on the game passed on this play for a reason. What that reason was we will just have to ask them.



Peace

I hope you are saying that the trail in a 2 person game should not call a travel on a play in the post because such is not the case in a 3 person game.

When the ball is in the post the trail should stay engaged with the play and referee the off. Player's feet. This, as I have stated before, is good team officiating. When you can help your partners do so. On a post play it is hard for the lead to referee contact along with the player's feet and the trail is in great position to see the big picture and aid his lead.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

I hope you are saying that the trail in a 2 person game should not call a travel on a play in the post because such is not the case in a 3 person game.

You obviously did not read what I said.

Originally Posted by btaylor64

When the ball is in the post the trail should stay engaged with the play and referee the off. Player's feet. This, as I have stated before, is good team officiating. When you can help your partners do so. On a post play it is hard for the lead to referee contact along with the player's feet and the trail is in great position to see the big picture and aid his lead.

Three person and 2 person mechanics are very different. And Trail's responsibility in 2 person is not nearly the same in 3 Person. The Trail and the lead in 2 person are not on the same side of the court. So to compare the looks is really kind of silly. And if the trail is watching this play on the other side on the lane, then we have a ball watcher and he is likely missing other actions by other players. Just because the ball goes in the post, does not stop other players from setting screens, fighting for position. I feel comfortable as a Trail to let my partner take this play.

Peace

[Mwanr1]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I know this is going to be hard for you to understand. The officials passed on the play for a reason. I know you think you are the best official alive and you can see things that officials on the game cannot see, because you can slow down the tape and watch it over and over again. :

Peace

Now how do you know the lead passed on the traveling for a reason? Is there a possibility that he missed the traveling because he's too close to the play? When working the 2 person game, the T should normally work wider and deeper to get a better angle of the play (depending on the location of the ball and players). For 3 person, the Lead are trained to officiate upper body, waist to shoulders, and let the Trail assist you with the feet (traveling).

Judging from the lead's position from the start of this play, I can guess that these two officals are not very experienced. First, the lead was working too close to the "closeline" spot when the ball is outside of the 3pt line. I would probably have my outside shoulder, the left shoulder, align with the ball so I can officiate both the ball and while using my peripheral on the second competitive matchup (post up players). When the post player receives the ball and makes a move towards the basketball, he's moving with the players in a straight line as opposed to moving away from them to get create an angle to officiate the shot.

As for the Trail (new lead) , any experience official would probably stop at about the top of the key to somewhere around the ft line extended get an angle to see between the dribbler and defender. He obviously didn't know when to stop and was straightline. So is it that they are passing on the fouls/violation, or is it that they don't have enough experience and skills like Rut to call the play???

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

Now how do you know the lead passed on the traveling for a reason? Is there a possibility that he missed the traveling because he's too close to the play? When working the 2 person game, the T should normally work wider and deeper to get a better angle of the play (depending on the location of the ball and players). For 3 person, the Lead are trained to officiate upper body, waist to shoulders, and let the Trail assist you with the feet (traveling).

I realize that it is hard for you to understand. But when people make calls or do not make calls, there is a reason. The reason might be as simple as they did not see the play. Or the reason could be they saw the entire play and did not think it was a violation. Or they may say I missed the play and should have called a violation. That is why the common question I ask when working a camp is, “What did you see?” Their answer tells me why they decided to make a call or not make a call.

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

When working the 2 person game, the T should normally work wider and deeper to get a better angle of the play (depending on the location of the ball and players). For 3 person, the Lead are trained to officiate upper body, waist to shoulders, and let the Trail assist you with the feet (traveling).

I have no idea what is expected in your area, but where I am from we do not teach the Trail to be looking at a play on the other side of the lane away from the trail (that is not in the trouble area of course). And we do not teach the "upper body, lower body" mechanic either. You call what is in your primary, not just a part of the body. That is not even taught at the college level or at the camps I have attended in the last several years.

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

Judging from the lead's position from the start of this play, I can guess that these two officals are not very experienced. First, the lead was working too close to the "closeline" spot when the ball is outside of the 3pt line. I would probably have my outside shoulder, the left shoulder, align with the ball so I can officiate both the ball and while using my peripheral on the second competitive matchup (post up players). When the post player receives the ball and makes a move towards the basketball, he's moving with the players in a straight line as opposed to moving away from them to get create an angle to officiate the shot.

I do not necessarily agree with that statement either. Then again we all have differences in what we see as important.

Originally Posted by Mwanr1

As for the Trail (new lead) , any experience official would probably stop at about the top of the key to somewhere around the ft line extended get an angle to see between the dribbler and defender. He obviously didn't know when to stop and was straightline. So is it that they are passing on the fouls/violation, or is it that they don't have enough experience and skills like Rut to call the play???

You are making these absolutes based on one play. Two person is not even something many experienced officials I even see work. So to suggest that any experienced official would be working one way on a play deep in the Lead's primary is a stretch. But then again, what do I know. I actually am in a position to teach mechanics in my state and run clinics. So I guess I should just throw out all I know and have been told to focus on, and take you position. It sounds like you cannot understand why I feel differently than you, and try to justify it by talking about what the mechanics of the officials were. I keep saying this was one call in one game. I think I would need to view more of the game to judge someone's experience level. I do not even know what offense or defenses are being run. But then again, you are the expert.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is obvious this is a 2 Person game, I never was thinking otherwise. And in a 2 Person game I am even more careful to make calls I "think" happen before I call something in my partner’s area. With the Lead standing right there and the play took place clearly in his area. The player barely spun into the lane. As a Trail I better be 1000% sure something happen in another official’s area. And without a clear look at the left foot and ball status, I really am not calling a travel based on this angle. There is a reason why we want officials closer to the lane than this official appeared to be standing and definitely closer than this camera angle. Just because we are looking from a fixed position far away (in the backcourt of this play I might add) from the Trail, does not mean that is a better angle or look than the Trail on this video had. I must make it very clear again, the officials on the game passed on this play for a reason. What that reason was we will just have to ask them.

Peace

Hey, I fully agree with you on the lack of a call....all I was saying was that the camera was exactly the view the trail had....pretty much looking right through his head. The distance is irrelevant with a camera since you can zoom and post process....replay cameras used for various sports might be up to 100-500 feet from the play.

[canuckrefguy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I have an issue that you are saying there was an obvious travel. When you do not see the ball, how do you know if there is control or there is not a bobble. It is not proper to call a travel just on the basis of someone's feet.

I think I have stated what my position on this contact was enough already.

Peace

Rut you chicken-bleep - you didn't even VOTE!!

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by canuckrefguy

Rut you chicken-bleep - you didn't even VOTE!!

I gave my vote in the last thread.

Peace