Foul on jump ball participant

Let's see, the ball is live when it leaves the Rs hands & holding a player who isn't trying for a basket during live action is a common foul.

Although I'm sure a case can be made for an intentional foul if the hold negates an obvious advantageous position for B1.

Guess one would have to be there to determine...

I'm more concerned about what to do next in both situations.

Common foul - award the ball to Team B OOB closest to the spot of the foul & point the arrow to Team A when it's at the throwers disposal?

Intentional foul - B1 shoots 2 FTs & the ball to Team B OOB closest to the spot of the foul & point the arrow to Team A when it's at the FTers disposal? or at throwers disposal?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

...

Intentional foul - B1 shoots 2 FTs & the ball to Team B OOB closest to the spot of the foul & point the arrow to Team A when it's at the FTers disposal? or at throwers disposal?

Good question about the arrow. I need to look that one up. I'm going to guess that it's when it's at the FT'er's disposal as something could happen in the interim (like a T on Team B) and we never make it to their throw-in (NFHS rules)....edit: guess my guess would be wrong per Nevada's post below.

[Nevadaref]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ch1town
...

Intentional foul - B1 shoots 2 FTs & the ball to Team B OOB closest to the spot of the foul & point the arrow to Team A when it's at the FTers disposal? or at throwers disposal?

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Good question about the arrow. I need to look that one up. I'm going to guess that it's when it's at the FT'er's disposal as something could happen in the interim (like a T on Team B) and we never make it to their throw-in (NFHS rules).

You had a 50-50 shot at it, but missed.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Quote:




You had a 50-50 shot at it, but missed.

Yeah, I saw that...I already edited my post above.

Good looking out Nevadaref! I can always count on you to put the rules out there in b&w.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Good looking out Nevadaref! I can always count on you to put the rules out there in b&w.

You're welcome, and FYI if this situation were to occur when the bonus was in effect, such as at the start of an extra period with both teams having committed 7 team fouls in the second half, and the foul was deemed a common foul, then the following rule applies.

4-3-2
. . . The ball is placed at the disposal of the free thrower after a common foul when the bonus free throw is in effect.

So one has to consider both whether the bonus is in effect at this point in the game as well as if FTs are for a common foul or a noncommon foul in order to reach the proper conclusion.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

I'm more concerned about what to do next in both situations.

Common foul - award the ball to Team B OOB closest to the spot of the foul & point the arrow to Team A when it's at the throwers disposal?

Intentional foul - B1 shoots 2 FTs & the ball to Team B OOB closest to the spot of the foul & point the arrow to Team A when it's at the FTers disposal? or at throwers disposal?

NFHS 4-3-3
Alternating-possession control is established and the initial direction of the
possession arrow is set toward the opponent's basket when:

. . . The ball is placed at the disposal of the thrower after:
a. A violation during or following the jump before a player secures control.
b. The free throws for a noncommon foul.
c. A common foul before the bonus free throw is in effect.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Let's see, the ball is live when it leaves the Rs hands & holding a player who isn't trying for a basket during live action is a common foul.

Just want to chime in on this part with a reminder that, had the foul been before the R released the ball, it would have to be an intentional (or, perhaps, flagrant) technical foul.

Mark- Because it's a dead ball? Don't we have the option to ignore that contact?

Snaqwells- I see your point too but I really don't mind them getting out of hand at that level.
3 Ts = ballgame My partner & I are now on "break" or even better going home early.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Mark- Because it's a dead ball? Don't we have the option to ignore that contact?

Unless you think it's intentional. Yes, there is some discretion allowed on dead ball situations.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Ch1town

Mark- Because it's a dead ball? Don't we have the option to ignore that contact?

Yes. I'm just saying that if you call anything, it has to be a T.

[BillyMac]

Rule 4-19-3 An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul which neutralizes an opponent's obvious advantageous position. Contact away from the ball or when not making a legitimate attempt to play the ball or a player, specifically designed to stop or keep the clock from starting, shall be intentional. Intentional fouls may or may not be premeditated and are not based solely on the severity of the act. A foul also shall be ruled intentional if while playing the ball a player causes excessive contact with an opponent.

I'm leaning toward intentional, but I can be persuaded otherwise.

[ace]

you let a player whine all night long? at some point enough is enough....

and if this was the opening play, and I saw it, i'm not sure I wouldn't eject him right on the spot just to get the problem out of the way of a ball game. Holding a player down to keep him from jumping is REALLY unsporting, and really is pretty down right flagrant.

where was the partner during this - could he not see?

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by ace

you let a player whine all night long? at some point enough is enough....

I have 2 kids, an ex-wife, a girlfriend, and 4 women work in my office. I'm oblivious to whining. It's an over-40 Rec League, I don't officiate it the same way I do my HS and JuCo games. He whined but he wasn't rude about it, so I let it go in one ear and out the other.

Originally Posted by ace

and if this was the opening play, and I saw it, i'm not sure I wouldn't eject him right on the spot just to get the problem out of the way of a ball game. Holding a player down to keep him from jumping is REALLY unsporting, and really is pretty down right flagrant.

where was the partner during this - could he not see?

I'm quite sure my partner wasn't paying attention to the jumpers.

[Back In The Saddle]

In general, I think seeing the result of contact that may be intentional or flagrant can usefully inform the decision. And, in the case of neutralizing an opponent's obvious advantageous position, it is very much an after-the-fact decision. However, all the examples I'm coming up with have to do with an IF or FF during a live ball.

The "circular reasoning" part of your question is intriguing. In addition to allowing the result of the foul inform your decision, there is the matter of the more exacting criteria for intentional and flagrant fouls. Strictly by rule, a foul you wouldn't judge intentional during a live ball, shouldn't be judged intentional during a dead ball. The rule is the same.

But that leaves us with a potential conundrum which is that common foul contact which occurs entirely within a dead ball period, if it impacts the subsequent live ball play, technically must be passed on. But I do not believe that such a ruling is within the intent or spirit of the rules. So perhaps the "line" between common and intentional shouldn't always be drawn in the same place for both live ball and dead ball situations.

However, in the OP, holding the jumper prior to the toss seems to be a clear case of "contact...when not making a legitimate attempt to play the ball or a player". I'm probably going to have an intentional T here if I see it. And if pressed, I'm going to judge that the fouler's intent was to keep the clock from starting. It probably ain't true, but I'm unwilling to let this punk get off on a technicality like that.

But I remain unconvinced about the distraction issue. While not entirely in the spirit of fair play, I have a difficult time conceiving of too many distractions I would deem an illegal advantage. Having said that, in your poke in the back scenario, if it's a non-jumper poking a jumper, it's a clear violation for breaking the plane of the circle. I don't have my book handy so I won't assert this with certainty, but I believe both jumpers are required to be in their own half of the circle. So a poke in the back by the other jumper would also be a violation. Similar "protections" exist for players on the lane during a free throw, for the thrower during a free throw, and the thrower during a throw-in. So I guess there are more situations than I first considered where such a distracting act would actually be illegal. Though, in general, I don't think that was the reason those rule exist, and I still don't consider distracting an opponent illegal, just bad basketball. However, if the Fed wants to make it explicitly illegal to distract an opponent, I would be absolutely giddy to whack somebody for screaming at the shooter or yelling "BALL BALL BALL..."