Tenn/UF--giving help outside your area but getting it right

[Raymond]

Anyone see the Vols(A)/Gators(B) game last night.

Less than 10 seconds left Vols have a spot throw-in in its b/c on the baseline. A1 tries a short pass to A2 right in front of him but B1 immediately knocks the ball from from A2's hands OOB. Trail gives ball back to Vols but then "C" runs over and they have discussion. Lead (crew chief I believe) then comes to join in but appears to just listen. After conference the "C" blows his whistles and points for Gators to get the ball.

Replays show conclusively that the ball did hit the top of A1's foot OOB.

Thoughts? Would you have done the same if you were the "C" in this sitch? How about if it were 14 minutes left in the 1st half? Should it make a difference? In the sitch above, after the decision was made do you think the Trail should have come out the conference and been the one to signal Gators' ball?

What would Doug Shows have done?

Not criticizing, just wanna hear different philosophies or folks who have had similar game scenarios.

[JS 20]

ANYTIME anything like this happens where your partner sees something to change the call, the calling official (in this case the T) should be the one to change his/her call. Same official making the original call should make the correction, not the person who saw it different.

[zebraman]

Hopefully as the C helping out, I am helping by looking somewhere other than at the throw-in spot. However, if I do give help and my partner accepts it, he changes his call. I don't make the call because that looks like I overruled.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Anyone see the Vols(A)/Gators(B) game last night.

Less than 10 seconds left Vols have a spot throw-in in its b/c on the baseline. A1 tries a short pass to A2 right in front of him but B1 immediately knocks the ball from from A2's hands OOB. Trail gives ball back to Vols but then "C" runs over and they have discussion. Lead (crew chief I believe) then comes to join in but appears to just listen. After conference the "C" blows his whistles and points for Gators to get the ball.

Replays show conclusively that the ball did hit the top of A1's foot OOB.

Thoughts? Would you have done the same if you were the "C" in this sitch? How about if it were 14 minutes left in the 1st half? Should it make a difference? In the sitch above, after the decision was made do you think the Trail should have come out the conference and been the one to signal Gators' ball?

What would Doug Shows have done?

Not criticizing, just wanna hear different philosophies or folks who have had similar game scenarios.

Every time.

Same call.

Never.

IMO, the best way to handle the sitch is for the C to provide more info to the T (via their discussion as your described), then have the T reverse his own call by blowing his whistle and then pointing in the new direction.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by JugglingReferee

Every time.

Same call.

Never.

IMO, the best way to handle the sitch is for the C to provide more info to the T (via their discussion as your described), then have the T reverse his own call by blowing his whistle and then pointing in the new direction.

My responses are the exact reverse of Jug's because of what zebraman wrote. As the C, I am NOT watching the play that is TWO feet in front of my partner. If he can't handle that play, then that's his problem and he can answer to the powers that be for it.

So I would:
NEVER help in this situation, but for circumstances in which I would help a partner the time left in the game does matter to me. If a partner blows a call in the 1st half the team still has plenty of game time to recover. I'm very likely to just let him live with it. However, if there is a blown call in the last minute, the team that suffers has very little opportunity to make up for it, so I would be much more likely to offer my suggestion.

I do agree with him that the original calling official should be the one to reverse his own call. The Japanese concept of saving face comes into play here. I never want to embarrass a partner on the court.

[JugglingReferee]

I think it's quite possible that the T not seeing the ball off of A1's foot was because he was too close.

Of course it is odd for the C to be looking at A1's area, but if I did (mechanics error) and I am 100% sure that I information that will change the call (if accepted), then I will accept the criticism for my mechanics hiccup in favour of awarding the team entitled to the ball, according to the rule.

I am assuming that the C was rather close to the play, perhaps because of B pressing and the C stayed with the press rather that bailing out down the court.

With the CC getting into the mix (just listening) he had a chance to step up and voice, if necessary, any suggestions.

I agree with NV that late in the game, there is little chance to "recover" from a call that was ruled incorrectly. However, I also believe that each possession counts.

[mightyvol]

I saw this play occur, and if you were watching Mike Eades the official that was administering the inbounds pass got himself too close to the action....sometimes in these College Venues there is very little room on the baselines....such was the case last night. Mike Kitts the "C" saw what exactly happenend and took it upon himself to make the change. The call that Kitts made was the correct call and I commend him for stepping in and getting the call right. It wasnt as if Kitts came running in signaling the other direction...they got together talked about it and wanted to be 100% sure that this occured......Great officiating by a great official. Way to go Mike Kitts.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally Posted by mightyvol

I saw this play occur, and if you were watching Mike Eades the official that was administering the inbounds pass got himself too close to the action....sometimes in these College Venues there is very little room on the baselines....such was the case last night. Mike Kitts the "C" saw what exactly happenend and took it upon himself to make the change. The call that Kitts made was the correct call and I commend him for stepping in and getting the call right. It wasnt as if Kitts came running in signaling the other direction...they got together talked about it and wanted to be 100% sure that this occured......Great officiating by a great official. Way to go Mike Kitts.

This frustrates me at times. I saw a Canadian NCAA-level game where an official had such little room to move, that his footing was tripped up and only his quick thinking prevented him from a spill. Get the cheerleaders, promotional banners, etc... the hockey sticks out of the way. No sponsorship money is worth injury to someone.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

My responses are the exact reverse of Jug's because of what zebraman wrote. As the C, I am NOT watching the play that is TWO feet in front of my partner. If he can't handle that play, then that's his problem and he can answer to the powers that be for it.

This tired old argument.

Some of us can actually monitor our area and be aware of what else is happening on the court.

If you master this art Nevada you may yet qualify to work girl's and woman's games (how's that Bob?)

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Anyone see the Vols(A)/Gators(B) game last night.

Less than 10 seconds left Vols have a spot throw-in in its b/c on the baseline. A1 tries a short pass to A2 right in front of him but B1 immediately knocks the ball from from A2's hands OOB. Trail gives ball back to Vols but then "C" runs over and they have discussion. Lead (crew chief I believe) then comes to join in but appears to just listen. After conference the "C" blows his whistles and points for Gators to get the ball.

Replays show conclusively that the ball did hit the top of A1's foot OOB.

Thoughts? Would you have done the same if you were the "C" in this sitch? How about if it were 14 minutes left in the 1st half? Should it make a difference? In the sitch above, after the decision was made do you think the Trail should have come out the conference and been the one to signal Gators' ball?

What would Doug Shows have done?

Not criticizing, just wanna hear different philosophies or folks who have had similar game scenarios.

Forgot to add that Tennessee was up by 3-points so the possession was very significant.

Also, the play that led to the throw-in was an easy PC foul in the paint. But the annoucers (Billy Packer being one of them) were confused as to the call. They claimed another official had signaled a block and the Lead had "over-ruled" him . Did anyone see either the T or C with a whistle/preliminary on that play.

[inigo montoya]

Yeah, that was bizarre. I was thinking "how is that NOT a PC foul on Werner [Florida]?" when those two were going on about how bad the blocking call was. The lead signalled PC the whole way.

The angles on the in-bounds play were a little crazy. With the press on, I think it's great that the C was helping out there. If I remember right, he was in position to be able to see the throw-in while still watching a matchup or two in his own primary. And with < 10 seconds to go, with a one-possession game, you do want to make sure you get EVERYTHING right.

I'm still not sure how the last OOB play went to Tennessee (not to mention a full second running off after the whistle sounded but what're ya gonna do?) as it looked obvious to me that it was rebounded OOB by Tenn. But I'll admit i'm a homer.

[zebraman]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

This tired old argument.

Some of us can actually monitor our area and be aware of what else is happening on the court.

If you master this art Nevada you may yet qualify to work girl's and woman's games (how's that Bob?)

This old justification.

I always find it interesting how many officials watch ball and then call it "being aware of what else is happening on the court." There is a difference between being aware and officiating someone else's area.

If the C was helping on the press, there had to be other matchups than what was happening right in front of the T. I don't see how the C can see something right in front of the T by the feet if the C is doing his job and watching the other matchups.

[Nevadaref]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

This tired old argument.

Some of us can actually monitor our area and be aware of what else is happening on the court.

If you master this art Nevada you may yet qualify to work girl's and woman's games (how's that Bob?)

Evidently some of you have big, red "S"s on your chests.

[inigo montoya]

Originally Posted by zebraman

This old justification.

I always find it interesting how many officials watch ball and then call it "being aware of what else is happening on the court." There is a difference between being aware and officiating someone else's area.

If the C was helping on the press, there had to be other matchups than what was happening right in front of the T. I don't see how the C can see something right in front of the T by the feet if the C is doing his job and watching the other matchups.

Not C & T. Throw-in was administered by the L.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Evidently some of you have big, red "S"s on your chests.

Might be that.

Might also be that some of you have tiny little red "JV"s on your chest.

just sayin'